1 (edited by Joel 2011-08-23 18:34:16)

Topic: External effects in cubase - delay not being reported

Hi

I've started using a few outboard effects, compressor, eq etc..
I've set them up as external effects in vst connections (cubase 6) and got them processing just fine, however one strange thing is that pinging the hardware with the external effect plugin ALWAYS produces a result of 0ms, which I'm sure isn't accurate.

Delay compensation is working when the effects are inserted directly onto a track or group, but parallel processing is causing a very small delay which creates the infamous "comb filtering" effect. However since I can't get cubase to report the latency, I have to match up parallel processed tracks visually.

Any idea why the external fx plugin always reports 0ms? Anything I can do to fix it?

Suggestions appreciated! Thanks

I'm using 2 multiface 2s synced via adat and cubase 6, Mac OS 10.6.8, latest RME HDSP drivers.

2

Re: External effects in cubase - delay not being reported

Complain at Steinberg to finally support negative delay values. And/or search this forum...

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

3 (edited by Joel 2011-08-24 11:58:06)

Re: External effects in cubase - delay not being reported

Thank Matthias

Interestingly, Reaper reports a 1183 sample delay, which is not a negative delay value, however logic reports -13samples.

So you seem to be saying cubase + rme products are not suitable to be used together when using external effects?

*edit* after some research it seems not only RME interfaces are affected by this, thanks for pointing me in the right direction Matthias.

4 (edited by beeski 2011-09-22 15:47:46)

Re: External effects in cubase - delay not being reported

hmm, my multiface2 works fine with cubase and external effects; measured ping seems to average around 34.

rme hdsp [pci] / multiface II / win7 x64 / i7 4930k

5 (edited by Joel 2011-09-22 21:33:59)

Re: External effects in cubase - delay not being reported

beeski wrote:

hmm, my multiface2 works fine with cubase and external effects; measured ping seems to average around 34.

is this when you ping using the plugin, or "get delay" from the vst connections panel?

Cubase still can't ping my external fx, but they're fine with logic and reaper.

6

Re: External effects in cubase - delay not being reported

Seems one is talking about digital I/O, the other about analog I/O. The problem of negative values only occurs with digital I/Os.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

7 (edited by Joel 2012-01-21 01:25:07)

Re: External effects in cubase - delay not being reported

MC wrote:

Seems one is talking about digital I/O, the other about analog I/O. The problem of negative values only occurs with digital I/Os.

Hi MC

I don't quite follow. I'm using analogue I/O on the multiface for my effects.
Cubase can't ping them at all, but logic shows an offset of -13 which is a negative value.

8

Re: External effects in cubase - delay not being reported

Then I wonder what happens if you record one track that is played back from another track via analog loopback. The newly recorded track should be nearly sample-aligned with the played back one. Please check. And what do you see in Cubase and Logic when pinging this direct loopback?

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

9 (edited by Joel 2012-01-21 01:26:18)

Re: External effects in cubase - delay not being reported

Here are my loopback results using analogue i/o and alternatively totalmix on the multiface:

Cubase Loopback:
-13 samples using analogue
-90 samples using totalmix loopback

(the recorded audio is -13 or -90 samples EARLY depending i/o method)

Cubase FX Ping (analogue):
If i choose "get user delay" from vst connections = 1.06ms (51) but resets to zero when using the external fx plugin ping function.

Logic Loopback:
-13 samples with analogue
-90 samples using totalmix

Logic FX ping (analogue)
-13 samples

10 (edited by Joel 2011-10-24 17:39:02)

Re: External effects in cubase - delay not being reported

*BUMP*

any suggestions here?

I'm going to have to either change DAW or Hardware if I can't get this sorted.

Thanks

11

Re: External effects in cubase - delay not being reported

So your MF 2 shows -13 samples under OS X - we will check that. But basically this is no big deal. If changed so that you get 0 you would still see a negative delay (77 samples) when using the digital ports. It's the way it works...

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

12 (edited by Joel 2012-01-21 01:26:48)

Re: External effects in cubase - delay not being reported

Thanks

If there's a way for me to use the analogue i/o accurately in cubase it would save me the headache of having to learn a new DAW or find alternatives to the MF. which I am loath to do!

I wouldn't be using the digital loopback very much in a production situation, however being able to use ADC on my analogue I/O is crucial.

Regards Joel

Re: External effects in cubase - delay not being reported

Hi,

In Cubase/Devices/VST Audio System dialog it's possible
to set positive or negative delay/samples under
Adjust for Record Latency

look for the Audio Loopback test on Steinberg FTP server
ftp://ftp.steinberg.net/Download/Test_P … k_Test.zip

hope it helps

regards S-EH

Re: External effects in cubase - delay not being reported

S-E Hansson wrote:

Hi,

In Cubase/Devices/VST Audio System dialog it's possible
to set positive or negative delay/samples under
Adjust for Record Latency

look for the Audio Loopback test on Steinberg FTP server
ftp://ftp.steinberg.net/Download/Test_P … k_Test.zip

hope it helps

regards S-EH

Thanks

I have done this loopback test and adjusted accordingly. Recording isn't the problem.

The problem is cubase not being able to ping external FX with my MF, the resulting ping is always "0ms" and so essentially ADC isn't working when I want to use external effects.

Re: External effects in cubase - delay not being reported

From what I gather, the RME Driver should be reporting the true analog I/O latencies to Cubase.  This means that as long as Cubase adheres to these reported offsets, an analog I/O loop WILL report "0" as Cubase is correctly using RME's reported analog values.  Your -13 sample offset is likely a Mac driver issue as Matthias hinted at fixing (reporting the incorrect AD/DA offsets to the host).

I've also had issues with using digital I/O on the "hybrid" RME products (any RME PC Interface that has analog AD/DA and digital I/O - the driver will always report the analog I/O latency) when the other AD/DA converters are "quicker" than the RME's built in AD/DA conversion.  This is where a negative delay would be needed, and Cubase cannot currently accommodate this AFAIK.

I would LOVE to see a way to report the analog and digital I/O independently, but ASIO 2.0 does not support this (so RME can't really "fix" it in the driver) - and I believe this is the only way to solve the issue apart from Cubase adding individual offsets for each input and output connection.

The only way I came up with was to have RME add the ability to toggle the reported AD/DA latency in their driver.  If you run into a situation where you get a negative offset using 3rd party AD/DA converters through an RME PC Interface, swap the RME driver to the "Report Digital I/O ASIO Latency", and then the offset would naturally become positive at that point (but then the RME's Analog I/O is no longer sample-accurate for regular I/O needs including record offset placement - might not be an issue depending on your specific circumstance).

There is not currently a perfect solution - Using AD/DA's with varying delays will always be a kludge under ASIO 2.0 AFAIK.  This issue is not as pronounced on the "Ditigal only" boxes like the Digiface and MADI cards - but I still have issues over MADI due to my setup (I run two SSL Alphalinks, one Alphalink feeds the other via ADAT which adds like 4-6 samples of latency compared to the Alphalink that is connected directly to the MADI card).  Then, I specify the total analog I/O latency (above and beyond the ASIO's reported digital latency) in Cubase/Nuendo's "Record Offset Placement" field for sample-accurate overdubs.  Not perfect, but as close as I can get with ASIO 2.0 and Nuendo...

cool

MADIface-XT+ARC / 3x HDSP MADI / ADI648
2x SSL Alphalink MADI AX
2x Multiface / 2x Digiface /2x ADI8

Re: External effects in cubase - delay not being reported

The reason I think that cubase is not reporting correctly with a "0ms" ping is because i get comb-filter type effects when trying to use external FX in parallel , which indicates to me that cubase is not able to accurately get and compensate for roundtrip latency from the MF2. Using a compressor on the master buss wouldn't really show this problem, but i's quite evident in a parallel setup.

17

Re: External effects in cubase - delay not being reported

All correct, Randy. Let me just add that under OS X (this topic) the situation is the same - only one offset value for all I/Os, and this one can not be changed on the fly.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: External effects in cubase - delay not being reported

Joel wrote:

The reason I think that cubase is not reporting correctly with a "0ms" ping is because i get comb-filter type effects when trying to use external FX in parallel , which indicates to me that cubase is not able to accurately get and compensate for roundtrip latency from the MF2. Using a compressor on the master buss wouldn't really show this problem, but i's quite evident in a parallel setup.

I believe this is a driver issue - and Matthias mentioned he is looking into it.  They will likely revise the Mac driver's reported AD/DA offsets and get you fixed up in a jiffy (will be a new driver version).  Then Cubase will still report "0", but it will be a true "0" and not need the -13 samples of offset you are currently observing (should kill all comb-filtering once fixed)...

Thanks for confirming the rest of my understanding, Matthias :-)

cool

MADIface-XT+ARC / 3x HDSP MADI / ADI648
2x SSL Alphalink MADI AX
2x Multiface / 2x Digiface /2x ADI8

Re: External effects in cubase - delay not being reported

Well I'm still struggling with this. Seems the latest driver update didn't address the issue.

Anyway some new discoveries..

cubase can NOT ping external effects via the multiface 2 at 44.1 or 48khz

however at 88.2 and 96khz cubase is able to get a ping… any idea why this might be?

Most of my work is done at 48khz, so I'd actually like it to work at my chosen sample rate, although I suppose a higher sample rate is a workaround for now.

Since its easier for me to change hardware than DAW at this point due to a working in a heavy deadline environment,  I'm investigating other available interfaces since unfortunately I can't get any explanation about what's going on from either RME or Steinberg.

Re: External effects in cubase - delay not being reported

Somewhere on this forum it is explained/discussed that parallel compression (or any parallel external processing) is only possible when you also send the unprocessed audio through the converters. Converters have a subsample latency value (like 3.46 samples) that can not be compensated for by any host.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
HDSP9652+ADI-8AE  2X HDSP9632
Cubase pro10

21 (edited by Joel 2011-12-13 08:45:35)

Re: External effects in cubase - delay not being reported

This doesn't explain why cubase can't ping external effects with the multiface. This means I can't even use external effects as inserts, let alone in parallel.

If what you say is true though, that's rather disappointing and not a practical way to work, it is odd that it was not mentioned in this thread.  Perhaps it is timeous that I find a replacement for the multiface.

Re: External effects in cubase - delay not being reported

The parallel effects issue is with all interfaces and brands. No converters have exact sample latencys. As to the pinging, I hope either rme or steinberg will fix this. If you do try another interface make sure it is try before buy, cause if the problem is not with rme, it is a waste.
BTW I understand you don´t like it, but if you accept the parallel issue and start working with both original and compressed through the converters, you might have a completely workable system.
Oh I have no stakes in RME.

BTW the reason cubase can´t ping at 44 and 48 is the reported latency in logic. -13 samples. But MC please comment, that should be fixed in the driver, not?

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
HDSP9652+ADI-8AE  2X HDSP9632
Cubase pro10

Re: External effects in cubase - delay not being reported

Thanks

I'm not convinced that there is no brand of convertor that can handle parallel compression, I'm demoing a prism orpheus this week so I'l post my results with that.

If the method of re-converting the original signal is the only way I guess I'll have to adapt.. or get a mixing desk and go more analogue ;-)

Re: External effects in cubase - delay not being reported

I believe this is still an issue of the common driver being used for both the old "slower" Multiface-I and also for the newer "quicker" MF-II.  Since the MF-II is quicker (but the ASIO latency is reported from the MF-I's AD/DA section), it will need a negative delay to match the slower MF-I's reported ASIO delays.  Unfortunately, Cubase/Nuendo don't allow "Negative Delays" on the External Effetcs sad  (which is odd because other DAW's apparently DO!)

RE: Precise sub-sample delay compensation:  I suppose it would be possible for someone to design an AD/DA from the ground-up that would end up having a delay that is exactly down to an even sample (no sub-sample offsets in the oversampling sections) - but I kind of doubt that exists.  Some might be closer to an even sample than others, but I doubt any converters are EXACTLY delayed by a multiple of the base sample rate.  The speed of light also comes into play with cabling at some point - so how exact does one need to be in the grand scheme of things?  I'd say do the analog loop to both the dry and parallel processed chain as recommended, and they will be sync'd as close as humanly possible...

cool

MADIface-XT+ARC / 3x HDSP MADI / ADI648
2x SSL Alphalink MADI AX
2x Multiface / 2x Digiface /2x ADI8

Re: External effects in cubase - delay not being reported

Ok, so I guess this is one of the downsides of digital/analogue hybrid setups that requires a workaround (or a mixing desk)

Thanks for all the input so far.

Re: External effects in cubase - delay not being reported

The one thing I am not sure about is; if cubase could ping the negative latency correctly would the subsample latency still be an audible problem with parallel processing?

And could RME add a switch for the MF1 and 2 in the driver so that both latency´s would be reported correctly.

And an easy solution for the time being would be to mix to 2 buses (and then to the master out). Delay one by 12 samples, mix to that bus and return all external effect to the non delayed.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
HDSP9652+ADI-8AE  2X HDSP9632
Cubase pro10

Re: External effects in cubase - delay not being reported

At 88.2 and 96khz I'm able to ping in cubase (still a mystery why)

Parallel compression is generally working at those sample rates when cubase is able to get a ping, although I have noticed some other odd behavior.
For example if i add an external insert at 88.2 and ping, I get a result between 73 and 75. I often have to perform the ping a few times to get a result that doesn't cause noticeable phase smearing.

If i add a 2nd external effect in series, the ping on both plugins drops to 25, I'm not sure what to make of that, but nevertheless I am able to use external plugs (even in parallel it seems) at these higher sample rates with repeated pinging needed to get accurate sounding alignment. Vinark's solution of having a fixed delay on a bus track wouldn't work because it seems the ping results are not consistent.

What would be great is a driver fix so that cubase can at least ping at lower sample rates and hopefully also improve the ping accuracy at the higher rates.

Re: External effects in cubase - delay not being reported

*bump*

Matthias, is this something RME is planning to look into/fix?

29

Re: External effects in cubase - delay not being reported

Yes, don't worry.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: External effects in cubase - delay not being reported

MC wrote:

Yes, don't worry.

Great to hear, any ETA on a fix?

Thanks

31 (edited by Joel 2012-04-03 22:13:40)

Re: External effects in cubase - delay not being reported

OK so 8 months after first reporting this and no fix forthcoming, I decided to sell my Multiface2 and get the new UAD Apollo, which works perfectly with cubase and external effects.
I do feel somewhat let down that RME never addressed this. It's disappointing that the MF2 never got a proper driver that accurately reports it's latency figures.
I've been an RME loyalist for years but now have decided to give another vendor a chance.
That said the MF2 was a rock solid workhorse for years and besides the latency issue, never gave me a moment's trouble.

32

Re: External effects in cubase - delay not being reported

Hi,

I am encountering the same problem 'comb filtering" or even split channels I would say.

Has anything been done to resolve it yet ??? OR maybe someone has found another solution to it ?

Thanks

Re: External effects in cubase - delay not being reported

It's not working correctly here either. I am trying to do parallel compression on some drum tracks with an external compressor, and I am getting phasing. Cubase keeps reporting 0ms... I have heard this is RME's fault... I have heard it is Steinberg's fault. I don't really care who's fault it is... RME, please talk to Steinberg! Maybe if you work together, you guys can come up with a fix on it... very frustrating...

Ok... In the meantime this is what I did:

I used the "test generator" plugin to send a sine wave out, flip phase on the return from the outboard gear, and adjust the delay manually until I have silence... I'm feeling very annoyed that I have to do this... a very slow process that should be instant if hardware insert delay compensation was working correctly. PLEASE FIX THIS SOON.

Thanks,
Todd

I have 3 cards installed in this machine...  that's a lot of money invested...  very frustrating to have this problem for so very long.

HDSPe AIO
HDSPe AES (x2)

https://www.noiseradiationstudios.com

34

Re: External effects in cubase - delay not being reported

First you have to explain your case in more detail:

1. Windows or Mac?
2. External compressor is analog or digital?
3. External compressor uses AIO or AES card?
4. If AES, external conversion is done?

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

35 (edited by Todd Loomis 2015-05-26 18:11:31)

Re: External effects in cubase - delay not being reported

1) Windows 7 64-bit
2) Analog compressor
3) I use both cards for external devices, but in this case, it is using the AES through Apogee AD-16X and DA-16X converters
4) See #3

   When I manually measured the delay by doing a sine wave phase cancellation process, I ended up at approximately 13ms or so.

   Is all of this because Steinberg is not supporting negative delay values?  Maybe you guys can convince them somehow to support this...  I have posted several times on their forum, but I have no idea if they are reading my posts or not.

https://www.noiseradiationstudios.com

36

Re: External effects in cubase - delay not being reported

No, it seems you misunderstood this thread. Using the AES cards we cannnot report delays that we don't know - that is the external Apogee converter AD/DA, and it also would not be negative.

If you use all three cards via ASIO at the same time we will most probably report the analog delay of the AIO card. That one might be a few samples higher than the AES-Apogee loop, which is then negative. But ASIO doesn't allow us to give more than one number, so whatever we do users are screwed...

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

37 (edited by Todd Loomis 2015-05-27 14:49:33)

Re: External effects in cubase - delay not being reported

So the problem really is with Cubase and Steinberg then.  Regardless of what delay is reported by RME hardware, Cubase ought to be able to adjust for it.  Cubase sends out the "ping" signal...  Cubase ought to be able to calculate it's own delay compensation by measuring when the ping signal returns - regardless of the hardware.

https://www.noiseradiationstudios.com

38 (edited by Todd Loomis 2015-05-27 15:44:18)

Re: External effects in cubase - delay not being reported

Can the RME hardware measure the delay between a playback channel and input channel by any chance?  If this value was reported, then I could just type this delay value into the Cubase hardware insert plugin.

https://www.noiseradiationstudios.com

39

Re: External effects in cubase - delay not being reported

It can't, but there are tools available that can. For example Ceentrance latency test, or the RTL Utility from oblique. Note that these measure the whole latency, so you might have to calculate the difference for Cubase yourself.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: External effects in cubase - delay not being reported

I would like to suggest a fix for this problem – this has been going on for a decade now! It’s time to address the issue and fix it!

FEATURE REQUEST FOR RME DRIVER:
    Please make it so we have the option to not report converter latency – so all I/O will just report the same latency - that of the digital I/O.   Then at least we can depend on the host software‘s *ping* feature to calculate the latency of the converters.  As it is now, for a user, it’s almost impossible to resolve the issue.

https://www.noiseradiationstudios.com