Topic: Direct Driver for Lion, M. Lion and Mavericks

Hi
There is problem with Audio Core driver under OSX 10.7, 10.8...10.9.
I am still on 10.6.8.

You may have heard that Apple had removed from Lion the Integer Mode capability that was bringing a strong improvement in sound quality.

Direct Mode, introduced in Audirvana Plus 1.4, completely bypasses CoreAudio, even its low-level layer, and thus reenables the buried Integer Mode, in addition to offer even increased sound quality.

http://audirvana.com/?page_id=159

This company made great solution for us working in Pro Audio industry.

Please can you tell us what RME will do about this?

I am owner of the RME Fireface 800.

Thanks.

Re: Direct Driver for Lion, M. Lion and Mavericks

Have you actually tried the player and found it does not work with an RME device (which?)?
Or is this some kind of advertisement for this software?

I would consider the claim to "sound better" to be hifi voodoo / esoterics, like the claim that differennt operating systems could inherently sound different. The RME devices will play any signal from audio software totally transparent and bit-perfect, integer or no integer, without trying to "improve" anything.

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

3 (edited by 19trax 2014-03-04 21:45:25)

Re: Direct Driver for Lion, M. Lion and Mavericks

RME Support wrote:

Have you actually tried the player and found it does not work with an RME device (which?)?
Or is this some kind of advertisement for this software?

I would consider the claim to "sound better" to be hifi voodoo / esoterics, like the claim that differennt operating systems could inherently sound different. The RME devices will play any signal from audio software totally transparent and bit-perfect, integer or no integer, without trying to "improve" anything.

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

No, this is not about software Audirvana. This is about Lion,  Mounutain Lion and Mavericks inferior Audio Core Driver.
I really tried and tested RME800 under Mountain Lion and Mavericks and the difference in sound is very obvious when listened in professional studio. So I still using 10.6.8 for audio.

Audirvana has direct driver that can be used under these latest OS to hear the difference between latest Apple Audio Core Drivers, and direct driver. Works with iTunes together too.
I have to say that Audirvana direct driver sounds the same like 10.6.8.

Do you have any plan to create direct driver to compensate this lower quality audio from latest Apple integer mode removal from Audio Core Driver?
Thanks

Re: Direct Driver for Lion, M. Lion and Mavericks

We are neither aware of a difference in audio quality between various OSX versions, nor can the driver "compensate" or improve audio quality.
Just for the record, what software did you use to determine this difference, and can the audible difference you claim to hear be measured?


Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

5

Re: Direct Driver for Lion, M. Lion and Mavericks

Just for the record: we test and demonstrate our cards with a self-written software that sends a 24 bit test signal out of all outputs and records it on all inputs. The incoming data must be bit-perfect or errors will be shown. The software uses the normal Core Audio interface. That said we never found any difference between any Mac OS X versions, means they all work bit-accurate.

Whatever you heard must have different reasons that are not to be discussed in this forum.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

6 (edited by gregor 2014-03-05 12:04:16)

Re: Direct Driver for Lion, M. Lion and Mavericks

Sorry MC, I just couldn't resist...

19trax, Audirvana and some other HQ/HiFI player companies will write anything just to convince you to buy their product, ( which btw is not cheap 59 EUR  for single copy). But you can use very good free players... Fortunately at least one company, which also sells its HQ media center supporting Integer/direct mode in OSX, writes true about this driver myth on its support and wiki page. So, 19trax please believe in what is the really true  ( i'm not trying to advertise the company as I personally use only free players...), but Jriver company on their forum is honest regarding the matter:

"OSX 10.9 restores the ability of a sound application to deliver data in the physical format of the DAC.  This ability is often referred to as "integer mode".  OSX 10.6 and earlier had this ability, but it was removed in 10.7 and 10.8.  In those versions, audio was always delivered in 32-bit floating point and changed to the physical format of the device by the operating system.Both playback methods are bit-perfect, and bit-perfect methods sound the same.

Integer mode is slightly more efficient since it removes an additional conversion and pushes less memory through the core audio subsystem.Integer playback puts the hardware into an unmixable state.  In this state, other system processing like volume will be disabled. You will likely want to switch to Internal Volume if you use integer mode.
(...)
Bit-perfect players, playing the same content, running in bit-perfect mode sound the same.
This is the definition of bit-perfect. Computers are deterministic.
The only relevant things happening for audio playback are:
1) Delivering the right bits
2) Delivering the bits fast enough
3) Keeping system usage low enough to avoid trouble [this is debatable]

- Lots of players do number 1, and it's easy to measure.
- Number 2 doesn't affect sound quality unless there's a shortfall,  (....*I cut soft advertisement*)
- Number 3 is slippery and debatable. It doesn't make sense and can't be detected or measured when using good audio hardware. And if there is a problem, it's obvious (ticks, hiccups, hum, etc.) and not something subtle with regards to clarity, soundstage, etc. Regardless, (.... *I cut soft advertisement*)

If someone is trying to sell you a product that has a “better bit-perfect”, they're tricking you (and maybe themselves)."

I completely agree with above statement, especially the last one smile It looks like Audirvana is trying to trick people...

Sources I used from Jriver:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=84657.0
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Bit-perfect_Audio

Re: Direct Driver for Lion, M. Lion and Mavericks

RME Support wrote:

We are neither aware of a difference in audio quality between various OSX versions, nor can the driver "compensate" or improve audio quality.
Just for the record, what software did you use to determine this difference, and can the audible difference you claim to hear be measured?


Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Any software will sound different on 10.6.8 and from Lion later that use Apple AudioCore driver.
If you cannot hear the difference between 10.6.8 and 10.7 and later I don't have any comment on that.

8 (edited by 19trax 2014-03-06 12:27:49)

Re: Direct Driver for Lion, M. Lion and Mavericks

MC wrote:

Just for the record: we test and demonstrate our cards with a self-written software that sends a 24 bit test signal out of all outputs and records it on all inputs. The incoming data must be bit-perfect or errors will be shown. The software uses the normal Core Audio interface. That said we never found any difference between any Mac OS X versions, means they all work bit-accurate.

Whatever you heard must have different reasons that are not to be discussed in this forum.

I am interested just in the correct audio result like it was on 10.6.8 period.
I am not the only one that can hear this.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/9245810-post13.html

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/9260115-post61.html

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/9262507-post93.html

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/9431660-post139.html

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/9431862-post142.html

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/9519748-post167.html

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/9520660-post169.html

integer mode:
This brings the optimization at the CoreAudio driver level, by removing all the standard Mac OS X audio processing that is implemented for multi-applications processing: mixing buffer, float to native DAC format conversion. And this moves the sound quality further to higher level, especially for the bass response.

9

Re: Direct Driver for Lion, M. Lion and Mavericks

Topic closed.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Direct Driver for Lion, M. Lion and Mavericks

19trax wrote:

Any software will sound different on 10.6.8 and from Lion later that use Apple AudioCore driver.
If you cannot hear the difference between 10.6.8 and 10.7 and later I don't have any comment on that.

Bit accurate is bit accurate and does not sound different. Everything else is imagination, expectation bias, or good marketing. None of the GS postings proves any measurable (!) difference, neither do you. If you wish to discuss it further, please do so on Gearslutz.


Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME