Topic: Thunderbolt 3

Hello. I have e Fireface 800 connected to my MacPro of wich I am fully satisfied.  Recently i have purchased a notebook MSI with thunderbolt 3 port. It's possible to connect my Fireface 800 to this new kind of thunderbolt port? Does it exist a particular cable firewire-thunderbolt 3 like that one of Apple thunderbolt-firewire? I have found this adapter:
https://www.akitio.com/adapters/t3t
and this this other one:
https://www.startech.com/Cables/thunder … T3TBTADAP.
Then if I will buy an Apple cable firewire-thunderbolt to connect my fireface 800 to these apdater. It works correctly or  there are  other cheaper solutions like a cable firewire-thunderbolt 3?

Thankyou

2

Re: Thunderbolt 3

It should work. But nobody knows because both adapters are not yet available.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

3 (edited by noize 2016-06-15 13:42:12)

Re: Thunderbolt 3

Thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 adapter appears to now available from various retailers in the UK as of 15/06/16.

Anyone's experiences with this adapter in use with RME's firewire devices please share.

4

Re: Thunderbolt 3

I have the Startech one working on a Dell XPS15 with Windows 10. When plugging in the TB2 FireWire adapter from Apple and audio playing there is a > 20% CPU load on one core during audio transmission. Process Monitor says it is the interrupts causing high DPCs. Audio is ok, no crackles, but the load is not encouraging to go this route. Maybe this will improve with the next Bios/Thunderbolt/driver update from Intel's or MS side, don't know.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Thunderbolt 3

Thanks for the update mc

6 (edited by Idiocratic 2016-10-27 16:09:59)

Re: Thunderbolt 3

MC wrote:

I have the Startech one working on a Dell XPS15 with Windows 10. When plugging in the TB2 FireWire adapter from Apple and audio playing there is a > 20% CPU load on one core during audio transmission. Process Monitor says it is the interrupts causing high DPCs. Audio is ok, no crackles, but the load is not encouraging to go this route. Maybe this will improve with the next Bios/Thunderbolt/driver update from Intel's or MS side, don't know.

Have u tested this more in detail? What about latency, audio recording?

I have the same issue:
Thunderbolt 3 (USB Type C) on my notebook (Thinkpad P70, Win7 64bit), and want to connect it to my Fireface 400.

Solution would be (instead of using Firewire ExpressCard):
Thunderbolt 3 (USB Type C) Adapter to Thunderbolt >
Thunderbolt Adapter (from Apple) to Firewire 800 >
Firewire 800 to Firewire 400 cable >
Fireface 400

So I consider to buy a Thunderbold 3 to Thunderbold 2 Adapter too.
Btw: Atm there are several of these adapters available:

Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt Adapter
    StarTech Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt Adapter - Windows Only
        info:
        https://www.startech.com/Cables/thunder … BT3TBTADAP
        buy:
        $103.99
        85€ https://www.amazon.de/StarTech-tbt3tbta … nderbolt+3
    AKiTiO T3T
        info:
        https://thunderbolttechnology.net/product/akitio-t3t
        https://www.akitio.com/adapters/t3t
        buy:
        69$ (64€) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01M04U186
        not available in germany atm, see https://www.heise.de/preisvergleich/eu/ … 15439.html
    Kanex Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt Adapter
        info:
        https://www.kanex.com/thunderbolt3/
        (check the interesting comment section)
        buy:
        $99,95 + $25.46 Shipping & Import Fees Deposit to Germany
        https://www.kanex.com/thunderbolt3-adapter
        https://www.amazon.com/Kanex-Thunderbol … 01EJ4XL08/
    Cable Matters - Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt Adapter for Windows
        info:
        https://thunderbolttechnology.net/produ … er-windows
        http://www.cablematters.com/pc-800-118- … ndows.aspx
        buy:
        $71.99

Would be interesting to know if they´re all the same or if one is more recommended (for audio / using in this scenario).

Firewire Cards:
If the Thunderbold 3 solution do not work, another solution would be to use a Firewire Expresscard. Presonus has a list of recommended compatible + incompatible Firewirecards -cable adapters -chipsets: http://support.presonus.com/hc/en-us/ar … ire-cards- Guess this apply to RME Hardware too.?

So whats the better (more stable, less problems) solution?
To use the Expresscard or the Thunderbold 3 ... adapter/...?

7

Re: Thunderbolt 3

The above described solution with USB-C to TB to FW does not work on my computer anymore. Well, it does, but after 20 seconds playback Windows crashes with BSOD. We will check if that can be fixed within our FW driver, but I have no high hopes.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

8 (edited by Idiocratic 2016-10-28 16:44:31)

Re: Thunderbolt 3

Thx for this info.
So I will use an ExpressCard for FireWire.

(One reason to buy the P70 Notebook was Thunderbolt 3 for using with Firewire. I realised afterwards that the Thunderbold 3 connection is incompatible with the Thunderbolt to Firewire Adapter plug from Apple. This sucks... Especially, cause you can read everywhere, that Thunderbolt 3 is compatible to TB 2 and 1. :-( )

(updated, There is no Thunderbolt 2 Expresscard, see https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopi … 5#p115325)

9 (edited by Timur Born 2016-10-28 16:09:31)

Re: Thunderbolt 3

Apple is selling these *bi*directional and small TB3-to-TB2 adapters now. Maybe they work better than the large unidirectional Startech ones.

http://www.apple.com/shop/product/MMEL2 … r?fnode=4c

10 (edited by Idiocratic 2016-10-28 17:20:02)

Re: Thunderbolt 3

Oh, thx for this info. As this Apple TB3 to TB2 Adapter is totally new, nobody knows if this will work fine in the scenario*, right?
* TB3 to TB2 Adapter > TB2 to Firewire Adapter > Firewire 800 to FW400 cable > Fireface 400

I have no idea if/what advantages directional vs unidirectional has.

What still scares me:

MC wrote:

The above described solution with USB-C to TB to FW does not work on my computer anymore. Well, it does, but after 20 seconds playback Windows crashes with BSOD. We will check if that can be fixed within our FW driver, but I have no high hopes.

But: USB-C is not the same as Thunderbolt 3.? And at the presonus site there seem to be several users where this works.? http://answers.presonus.com/3311/where- … 451#a10451

But, at the TB3 to TB2 Adapter product page there is this * sign which says the adapter only works with macOS Sierra? But I´m on Win7.
+ the new adapter is available at the earliest at 8th of November.
Maybe there will be a Thunderbolt 3 to Firewire Adapter?

Well, too much open questions. I will buy a Firewire Expresscard. Cause atm I have my new notebook, but can not use my fireface.
But maybe somebody will test this and post it here.

11

Re: Thunderbolt 3

This new adapter needs to be tried. It is said to only work with macOS Sierra, but Apple's claims for compatibility had been wrong before too. Maybe it works. Maybe it is a second generation version that even works better, and with everything USB-C - we'll see.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

12

Re: Thunderbolt 3

I tested the new Apple USB-C to TB adapter with my Dell XPS15 under Windows 10 64. It does NOT work.

Regarding the crash with TB to FireWire adapter: it turned out that this only happens with an additional TB bridge between the Startech and the adapter. I use an LG 38" Widescreen with two TB ports, sending the graphics data over TB, then using the monitor's second port to connect the UFX+ via TB. That works. The FW adapter in there crashes Windows sometimes already after three seconds.

Quite worrying, I must say...

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

13 (edited by Idiocratic 2016-11-09 15:08:59)

Re: Thunderbolt 3

thx for testing!

btw.: "Macbook Pro: Bestehendes Thunderbolt-3-Zubehör anscheinend nicht kompatibel. (...) Laut dem Hersteller Plugable liegt das Problem bei dem verwendeten USB-C-Chip von Texas Instruments. Laut Plugable setzt das Macbook Pro den Nachfolger dieses Chipsets vorraus. Dadurch kann die auf dem Vorgänger-Chipset basierende Hardware nicht mit dem Macbook Pro genutzt werden." http://t3n.de/news/macbook-pro-thunderb … -c-763412/
Maybe this effects the apple tb3 to tb2 adapter too

Re: Thunderbolt 3

The entire TB2/TB3/USB3/USB-C situation is turning into a disaster.

Apple is quietly replacing the charging cable that came with the USB-C equipped Macbook for a new one. The type number isn't changed tho.

If you need one, buy one in a rectangular box, the old one has a square box.

In some circumstances (with some devices and some 3rd party cables) it results in a completely destroyed computer. With Macbooks and the new MB Pro, the USB-C will be damaged and only work intermittently afterwards, if you encounter this problem. Of course, this isn't much better than a destroyed computer, as Apple will charge for a complete logic board replacement as the ports are on the main board. I doubt if warranty will cover this, but we'll have to wait to see what happens.

Nobody seems to know what works with which adapter...

Some reading:

http://tidbits.com/article/16870
http://www.theverge.com/tldr/2016/11/8/ … re-macbook
http://www.theverge.com/2016/2/4/109162 … ower-cords

Remark that this isn't an Apple only problem. Other platforms are affected too and nobody can foresee what will happen with a specific combination of computer/adapter/device.

Let's all say "Thank you, USB Industry association"?

The worst part is that you can't tell what's in a USB-C port. It could fi contain TB3, but it might not. Pure joy!

Re: Thunderbolt 3

oh oh ...

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, Win7 Prof, Nuendo 8.3, UFX+, Octamic XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS BE/DAC, RayDAT, ARC USB

16

Re: Thunderbolt 3

Idiocratic wrote:

thx for testing!

btw.: "Macbook Pro: Bestehendes Thunderbolt-3-Zubehör anscheinend nicht kompatibel. (...) Laut dem Hersteller Plugable liegt das Problem bei dem verwendeten USB-C-Chip von Texas Instruments. Laut Plugable setzt das Macbook Pro den Nachfolger dieses Chipsets vorraus. Dadurch kann die auf dem Vorgänger-Chipset basierende Hardware nicht mit dem Macbook Pro genutzt werden." http://t3n.de/news/macbook-pro-thunderb … -c-763412/
Maybe this effects the apple tb3 to tb2 adapter too

Of course this is the reason that the adapter doesn't work (Windows even issues a USB warning message although only TB is connected). But there is a difference: the new MacBook will never work with all existing USB-C to TB adapters except the Apple one. But 'older' USB-C equipped hardware like my Dell XPS15 could work with the Apple adapter. IMHO all it needs is a new firmware/TB driver from Intel to recognize the new adapter correctly. If that will ever happen - don't know...

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

17

Re: Thunderbolt 3

I just checked the new Apple adapter with the latest Intel Thunderbolt driver update which adds support for the 'new' TI USB chip. No change, the Apple USB-C to TB adapter can not be used with the Dell XPS 15, and most probably this is true for all 'PCs'.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

18 (edited by Timur Born 2016-11-15 11:30:58)

Re: Thunderbolt 3

This OWC dock was just announced, which - among others - includes a FW800 port. February 2017 isn't something you can use right now, though, and who knows when it will really hit the streets.

https://eshop.macsales.com/preorder/owc … lt-3-dock/

The USB ports are only 3.0 (3.1 Gen 1 = 3.0), hopefully not using some problematic Asmedia USB 3.0 chipset.

Re: Thunderbolt 3

Has anyone tried to run the UFX+ via USB 3 from the USB-C port of the new macbook pro late 2016?

Is there a working hub from USB-C to USB 3 like the HooToo or Satechi hubs?

Thanks!

Re: Thunderbolt 3

I'd also be interested in any experience if my RME soundcards are going to work (flawlessly!) at the USB-C of the new late 2016 macbook pro laptops (with adapters other than a USB-C to USB cable).

Can RME comment, or make any crosses in this list?
[_] Babyface
[_] MADIface Pro
[_] Octamic XTC (as audio device)

Thanks!

21 (edited by mr.r 2016-11-29 21:40:00)

Re: Thunderbolt 3

cyrano wrote:

The entire TB2/TB3/USB3/USB-C situation is turning into a disaster.

...

Nobody seems to know what works with which adapter...

Some reading:

http://tidbits.com/article/16870
http://www.theverge.com/tldr/2016/11/8/ … re-macbook
http://www.theverge.com/2016/2/4/109162 … ower-cords

Remark that this isn't an Apple only problem. Other platforms are affected too and nobody can foresee what will happen with a specific combination of computer/adapter/device.

Let's all say "Thank you, USB Industry association"?

The worst part is that you can't tell what's in a USB-C port. It could fi contain TB3, but it might not. Pure joy!

This is so true. It's a mess with usb-c also with mobile devices. With the wrong cable (wrong resisntance) you could damage the phone and the charging port.

Re: Thunderbolt 3

I have a brand new Macbook Pro with the new connections. I bought an Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2 adaptor ......then an Apple Thunderbolt 2 to Firewire 800 adaptor....then plugged that in to my Fireface 800. Nothing. I thought it was the cables or adaptors but the same configuration works on my Lacie drive which has Firewire and USB. It worked fine over Firewire.
But the Fireface is doing nothing.
What am I doing wrong?

Re: Thunderbolt 3

If you use High Sierra or Mojave, there are other software issues to contend with. The driver is most likely not installed due to Apple security changes. Run the installer again and follow these instructions.

http://www.rme-audio.de/download/AG_RME … ion_EN.pdf

Regards,
Jeff Petersen
Synthax Inc.