1 (edited by tzoglhs 2016-06-08 20:29:27)

Topic: pcie firewire card windows 10

Hi,

I got a new PC with the following components :
I7 6700K, 
Gigabyte Motherboard Z170X Gaming 3 (Z170/1151/DDR4),
32Gb RAM
Sandisc 480Gb System disc
WD Black Caviar 1Tb Audio files disk(+ 2 for Audio Libraries)
MSI graphics card
Windows 10

I'm using an RME Fireface 400 audio interface with Cubase 8.5 pro.
I've tried an approx pcie firewire card, but I've had trouble with sound glitches, no playback of recorded audio tracks, bluescreens, reboots, etc...
I downloaded all the new drivers.
The problems exist also outside Cubase, when I try to use a stand-alone Guitar rig, or Amplitube software, even in youtube.
At first I thought that it had something to do with Windows 10, but now...
I guess it should be the approx pcie card's fault.
I've also noticed that it doesn't power up my Fireface 400 and I have to use the mains power.

Would you please suggest a tested, flawlessly working pcie firewire card for my setup?

What do you think of the following item :

Delock PCI Express Card > 2 x external / 1 x internal FireWire A
Item No. 89121

Thanks!

2 (edited by ramses 2016-06-08 20:10:35)

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

Use the one I use for UFX .. see signature.

https://www.amazon.de/Exsys-15-06-2257- … s=EX-16415

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Exsys-EX-16415 … S+EX-16415

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro20H2, Cub11Pro, UFX+ (v0.9735), XTC, 12Mic, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE

3 (edited by tzoglhs 2016-06-08 20:43:18)

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

Thanks ramses!
I don't really need firewire 800 ports and I've read in another topic, that it's best not to use combination cards.
But it seems that this EXSYS company makes approved products for what I need.
What about the card from delock I've mentioned?
Does anyone know about it?

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

Or how about this one ?

https://www.amazon.de/Exsys-EX-16450-EX … ords=EXSYS

5 (edited by ramses 2016-06-08 21:14:18)

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

tzoglhs wrote:

Or how about this one ?

https://www.amazon.de/Exsys-EX-16450-EX … ords=EXSYS

It has the TI XIO2200A Chip on it, this chipset is not good.

http://www.ti.com/product/XIO2200A
"[...] Not Recommended for New Designs (NRND) [...]"

It seems to have some issues, ofc TI is not writing it explicitely this way.

Better take the one which I recommended you (for reasons).

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro20H2, Cub11Pro, UFX+ (v0.9735), XTC, 12Mic, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

The Delock 89121 I've ordered, has the TI TSB43AB23  chipset.
I'm waiting for it to arrive.
I'll try it and I'll share my experience.
I hope it will work.

Thank you very much!

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

Why don't you simply buy this card ?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Exsys-EX-16415 … S+EX-16415

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro20H2, Cub11Pro, UFX+ (v0.9735), XTC, 12Mic, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

Is it an option for you to switch to USB ?
Maybe you could sell your RME 400 for €~480 and get UC for € ~600-650 used ?

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro20H2, Cub11Pro, UFX+ (v0.9735), XTC, 12Mic, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE

9 (edited by tzoglhs 2016-06-16 08:58:31)

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

Are Windows 10 one of the problems?
If I switch back to Windows 7, would everything run smoothly?
This would be an easier solution, than to sell Fireface 400 and buy a USB audio interface.
And I guess If I'll do so in the future, I would buy a USB3 audio interface.
The Delock 89121 is a pcie card and is windows 10 compatible, according to the manufacturers page, Fireface 400 is windows 10 compatible, according to RME, Cubase 8.5 is windows 10 compatible, according to Steinberg.
Hopefuly there should be no problem, or someone is lying about compatibility with windows 10...
We'll see.

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

Oh no!
If it is so, do I have to switch to another motherboard???
That would be a pain...
What kind of motherboard would be trouble free for this setup?

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

So as I see it, I have to options:

a)Downgrade to an older computer system altogether, wich supports Firewire chipsets(almost impossible)
b)Buy a USB audio interface

or
c)If there is a chance for RME to write solid, appropriate firewire drivers for new skylake based systems.

I guess this problem will exist also with the UFX, UCX, 802 audio interfaces, for their firewire ports.

I cross my fingers waiting for the delock 89121...

12 (edited by ramses 2016-06-16 18:09:47)

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

It was mentioned in the gearsluts thread, that he brought it to work with this card:

https://www.amazon.de/Kalea-Informatiqu … g=rfm07-21

And it has the same chipset which I recommended, but where Nordcore said, it can also cause issues.

If I were you I would try the Firewire cards with TI XIO2213B chip 1st, and then draw another decision. EXSYS cards are at least known to have a solid platine board = good manufacturiing quality. Dont know about Kalea, never heard of this company.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro20H2, Cub11Pro, UFX+ (v0.9735), XTC, 12Mic, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

How about this info from presonus :

https://www.mi7.co.jp/products/presonus … _Cards.pdf

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

Received my Firewire interface EXSYS EX-16415 with XIO2213 chip yesterday.

I had once, for a few seconds, something looking like input signals in DigiCheck.

Beside that, the Fireface 400 is recognized by the system, and properly displayed in the device manager.
But the tray programs do not come up, DigiCheck reports error 4 (->F3: Fireface 400 is displayed/selected).


Strange (and not expected): I can use the Fireface audio output in windows (foobar2000 ...).
Not sure if that is stable, but it runs for a while.

Used driver is "OHCI 1394 Texas instruments" = what is installed automatically.
(The other two (generic, legacy) do not perform any better. )

... to be continued

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

Make a parallel installation of Windows 7 and re-check. Windows 10 is from what I read still not 100% good in shape.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro20H2, Cub11Pro, UFX+ (v0.9735), XTC, 12Mic, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

Make a clean deinstallation of RME drivers and re-install.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro20H2, Cub11Pro, UFX+ (v0.9735), XTC, 12Mic, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE

17 (edited by ramses 2016-06-26 06:39:46)

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

> As I wrote: I already had done that.

I know. As it works now something was wrong / missing when you did it the 1st time.
That was my suspicion wink

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro20H2, Cub11Pro, UFX+ (v0.9735), XTC, 12Mic, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

I confirm troubles with this setup on W10 x64:

Asus Z170-A
Intel i7 6700K
Kingston HyperX Fury Kit 16 GB
RME Fireface 800 (connected thru fw400 port)
Exsys EX-16450 (Pci-e to firewire card) with TI XIO2200A chipset

FF800 only works if bandwidth is limited to its 8 analog I/O
adding spdif or even the 2 adat expansions causes crashes (irql not less or equal and BSOD)

just ordered this card with XIO2213B
https://www.amazon.it/gp/product/B0167M … &psc=1

will try fw800 connection too eventually and will report the result

crossing fingers

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

TI XIO2200A is buggy

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro20H2, Cub11Pro, UFX+ (v0.9735), XTC, 12Mic, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE

20 (edited by ramses 2016-06-28 07:11:35)

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

Nordcore wrote:
ramses wrote:

TI XIO2200A is buggy

It did run for several people for years, on a lot of different hardware (main boards).

It does not run on boards with Intel Z170 chip set. So I'm unsure where the problem is.
(Note: it seems like a similar looking problem on X99 boards has been solved by Bios update. )

Search this thread for comments on RME on that.

RME pointed me to TI home page where even TI claims that this chip shall not be used in new designs anymore. Of course they didn't tell that this chip is bugged.

I can't tell exactly what is bugged in particular with this chip. I only can describe from application / user perspective that it was impossible to run all possible combinations of sample frequency and ASIO buffer size without RME UFX firewire driver's error counter increasing by a rate of ~8 errors per second and having crackles and audio drops.

The reason why this is undetected by all the people using it .. at 44.1 and 88.1 if I remember right all ASIO buffersizes worked satisfactory. But as I said not at all sample freqzencies/buffersizes.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro20H2, Cub11Pro, UFX+ (v0.9735), XTC, 12Mic, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE

21 (edited by ramses 2016-06-29 06:26:25)

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

I got the information that the TI XIO2200A is buggy. As I got this information in private e-mail I won't go into details.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro20H2, Cub11Pro, UFX+ (v0.9735), XTC, 12Mic, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

> That might be the case

For me personally it doesn't matter whether you believe me or not. Its an offer for others not to enter this pitfall.

> There is just *absolutely no reason* to take the NRFND state of the part as confirmation for that.

My comment to the NRFND state is not meant generally, only in regards to this chip in particular.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro20H2, Cub11Pro, UFX+ (v0.9735), XTC, 12Mic, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

I've just got reply from RME support which states that the TI XIO2200A is known to be problematic while there are no known issues with other TI chipsets

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

Well, the delock 89121 has arrived.
It has the TI XIO2200A chipset and I can confirm, that it doesn't work at all, even with MP3 playback, or youtube, with my setup(RME Fireface 400, Windows 10, I7 6700, Gigabyte Z170...etc).
Several blue screens and restarts, no sound at all, though the fireface 400 is recognised and powered up.
It's going back and I'm waiting for the EXSYS EX 16415, you suggested.
If this doesn't work also, I guess that I'll have to buy another audio interface with usb.
I'm hoping that it will work...

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

Windows 10 seems to contain nothing but bugs... I regard it still as a "can of worms"

https://www.computerbase.de/2016-06/win … ild-14376/

1800 error correction compared to 5 days older build.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro20H2, Cub11Pro, UFX+ (v0.9735), XTC, 12Mic, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE

26 (edited by tzoglhs 2016-06-29 23:00:59)

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

Ramses do you mean, that even with the exsys ex 16415 you suggested, I will still have problems due to windows 10?

27 (edited by ramses 2016-06-30 07:23:22)

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

I can't predict, but I wouldn't wonder too much if this happens.

If this should happen make a parallel installation of Windows 7 on a different disk.
Or add a partition / repartition your drive.

Then you will know as otherwise nobody can tell you the exact root cause.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro20H2, Cub11Pro, UFX+ (v0.9735), XTC, 12Mic, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

With my UCX, the SIIG NN-E20012-S2 would work flawlessly under Win 7 pro 64 bit.
I didn't even have to use the UCX power supply, I would bus power it.

Now under Win 10,  I must first turn on the UCX for the computer to recognize it.
It still works, but I am not too happy especially after reading this and other threads.

I purchased a NN-FW0012-S1this morning along with the proper cable. It has a TI XIO2213BZAY chip.
I'll see if it performs any differently.

29 (edited by ramses 2016-07-03 05:30:03)

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

If you have the UCX try using USB, maybe it makes a difference.
This is BTW one of the reasons why I recommend people to spend the extra bucks for UCX.
Then you can choose what runs more stable on your PC.
Now with Windows 10 eventually one benefit more to have the choice between USB or FW.
I am still very curious whether it makes a difference to use Win7 in cases of Fw issues with 10.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro20H2, Cub11Pro, UFX+ (v0.9735), XTC, 12Mic, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

In about 10 days from now I will be able to test the Fireface 400 through the EXSYS EX 16415 in Windows 10.
If it doesn't work, I'll try switching to Windows 7 and if that doesn't work either, it will mean that Windows 10 isn't the problem.
I have the suspicion that if Windows 10 was the problem then RME would not release firewire drivers for Windows 10 and they would be warning anybody with a firewire only audio interface not to upgrade to the new OS.

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

ok guys, I'm back with amazing results: after having installed the XI02213BZAY based chipset my system is running fine and stable. I can use all my FF800 bandwidth without any error.
I simply removed the "wrong" card and inserted the new one, started PC and..voilà.. didn't even need to reinstall rme drivers.

Thanks all for support!

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

Nice to hear and even with Windows 10 .. wink

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro20H2, Cub11Pro, UFX+ (v0.9735), XTC, 12Mic, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

The EXSYS EX 16415 has arrived.
I tested it and I have the same problems as with the approx.
When I record a guitar track in cubase 8.5 and try to overdub another guitar track, one of the two is not playing back and I hear odd sounds and glitches.
As I was recdording the second track, I was also hearing glitches and the recording stopped.
The waveforms of the recordings are visible, but the sound isn't there.
I uninstalled the RME drivers and installed them again, but nothing changed.
Do you have any ideas?

34 (edited by ramses 2016-07-16 10:09:25)

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

test RME card on other PC .. if it works, fine, RME ok

install Windows 7 on other disk on your pc .. if this works, then there is an issue in the area of Windows 10 or RME driver.

If it still not works maybe your mainboard has an issue ... driver / hw ...

Its excluded that something is screwed up with the project, this problem is also with other projects ?

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro20H2, Cub11Pro, UFX+ (v0.9735), XTC, 12Mic, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

The RME Fireface 400 is working fine on my older computer(I7 920).
On my new computer I only did test recordings and everyone of them has the same problem.
I will try windows 7, but I suspect that this is not the problem.
The mainboard having an issue, seems more like it, but I guess that if I had hardware problems, I should also have blue screens.
Question:Would everything work fine if I had a Usb audio interface?
What do you think?

36

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

tzoglhs wrote:

The EXSYS EX 16415 has arrived. I tested it and I have the same problems as with the approx.

Can you place the Exsys into other PCIe slots?

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

I did that already!
I thought that maybe one of my motherboards pcie slots, did not have enough power.
I tried both of my pcie slots.
Same problems.
I also have a big(red, just like the one my graphics card uses) pcie slot.
Should I try this also?
Is it compatible?

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

I've downloaded and installed my motherboards(gigabyte z170x gaming 3) audio and chipset drivers, with no better results.
Is there a chance that RME's drivers for windows 10 are not working good?
Could it be a software problem(Cubase 8.5)?
I will try the windows 7 installation tomorrow.

39

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

You can try the big slot as well.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

Well it doesn't work either...
Perhaps you know about other Z170 motherboards and firewire issues, because I read that many people have the same or similar problems, with Z170 motherboards from different manufacturers.
It doesn't seem to be a software problem to me.
Maybe a driver problem, from RME, or the motherboard.
I'm already very frustrated and tired, trying to find a (maybe non existing) solution to my problem.
If I decide to buy a Usb audio interface, wich one do you suggest?
UCX, 802, or wait for a UCX+, that will get rid of the firewire port for good and have a USB3 port?
UFX+ is an ovekill for me.
I don't want to record so many inputs at the same time and I don't want to pay so much for it.
But I see that it has newer preamps, converters and overall upgrades.
On the other hand, I don't want to buy something, that is already 4-5 years old and will soon be out of date, for some reason, like the FF400 I have now.
Buying a new interface was not in my program at all...
I'm very dissapointed with new technology and that kills my creativity as an artist!
Why don't you all build something that works well for a long time?
After all we want to make music, not fight with mysterious issues all the time.

41 (edited by ramses 2016-07-17 11:13:55)

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

> Why don't you all build something that works well for a long time?
New Win10 .. new chipsets nearly every 1-2 year .. new mainboards / designs / BIOSes .... ?!

> Why don't you all build something that works well for a long time?
Why you don't buy a system that simply works ?!

It was in the past always a good strategy to ask for OS / mainboard / chipset / Firewire Card
recommendations before actually buying ...

Things are sometimes not so easy as we all want them to be ...
to be on the safe side its always a good idea to get informations upfront, what is know to run and what not.

And it was never a good idea to blindly buy the newest things and expect it doesnt have rough edges anymore (Win10).

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro20H2, Cub11Pro, UFX+ (v0.9735), XTC, 12Mic, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

Well listen to this:
I create a new project in cubase 8.5.
I record two guitar parts.
One of them is not playing back.
I delete the project and the audio files and build a new project.
I record a new guitar track.
I push play...
I hear a white noise and after that I hear the guitar part that was not playing back in the project I deleted before!!!
Hahahahahahahaha...
That's something new!
I think I'm gonna sell everything and go back to my 4track cassete recorder!!!
Hahahahahahaha...

43 (edited by ramses 2016-07-17 11:27:53)

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

tzoglhs wrote:

Well listen to this:
I create a new project in cubase 8.5.
I record two guitar parts.
One of them is not playing back.
I delete the project and the audio files and build a new project.
I record a new guitar track.
I push play...
I hear a white noise and after that I hear the guitar part that was not playing back in the project I deleted before!!!
Hahahahahahahaha...
That's something new!
I think I'm gonna sell everything and go back to my 4track cassete recorder!!!
Hahahahahahaha...

Are you sure, that you did not do any mistake in terms of setup of channel in cubase or routing of channels in Totalmix ?
In regards to Totalmix you should definitvely have a look to some Videos, which explain it to you nicely.
http://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/inde … al-Videos/

There are certain things you need to know about Totalmix. The easiest way to work with it is the submix mode, so that you do not need to do the routing based on the matrix. This is much easier. You need to understand, that you select the Inputs and the Input Volume per output channel.
So you ensure you entered Submix mode.
You assign the 2 analog outputs with your Monitors to be you Main monitor.
Then you click in the lower right to the main monitor and now select, which channels you want to listen to and the volume.

In rare cases you might need to set TM to default settings. Which can be done under Options -> Reset Mix.

I would 1st of all check and ensure
- to have latest RME drivers
- check that you selected correct driver and that your VST connections are set properly in Cubase
- ensure that you understand TM concept by looking video and consulting manual
http://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/inde … al-Videos/

Of course it could also be the case, that maybe your unit is damaged.
But before assuming that you should better check your setup or ask your seller for support.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro20H2, Cub11Pro, UFX+ (v0.9735), XTC, 12Mic, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

Ramses I did my research, before I bought my new computer.
I didn't find anything wrong and nobody told me that it won't be good for music production.
I didn't have these problems in the past with my other computers.
After all it isn't fair that companies stopped supporting firewire, for all of us who have expensive professional firewire equipment and we paid a lot of money for them.
My musical instruments don't go out of date.
My mics don't go out of date.
My preamps don't go out of date.
They all work well for many decades!
That's money well spend.
I thought that it woud be the same at least for expensive audio interfaces.
If newer computers and software don't support them anymore, at least I'm expecting from the manufacturers to warn me and not say "everything works great with windows 10 and newer computers".
We musicians, or most of us, are not rich to throw away our hard earned equipment and buy new every few years.
Technology is supposed to be our friend and not our enemy.
So I suggest to audio equipment and computer manufacturers to at least be honest to us, because they are losing customers...

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

"And you are sure, that you did not do any mistake in terms of setup of channel in cubase or routing of channels in Totalmix ?"

Yes I'm sure I did everything right.
I thought about everything.
I tried all possible combinations.
I'm a professional musician/music producer and Cubase user for 20 years.
But I'm not a computer expert...

It seems like something is wrong either with windows 10, or something in the hardware department.

46 (edited by ramses 2016-07-17 11:34:07)

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

> It seems like something is wrong either with windows 10, or something in the hardware department.

Yes, could be the case.
I would contact seller and write to RME support to be sure to get support.
This is a user forum, where RME is very active, but to be on the safe side I would go the official way.

Maybe your seller can pro-actively replace the unit just for the case to catch any potential HW error.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro20H2, Cub11Pro, UFX+ (v0.9735), XTC, 12Mic, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

Thanks for your help ramses!

I'll contact RME support again and see what happens.

48 (edited by ramses 2016-07-17 14:11:51)

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

I took some time for you and re-inserted my Firewire PCIe card EX-16415 (TI XIO2213B) into my system
and connected the UFX via Firewire under Windows 10 to check whether I get issues as well.

I have a Windows 10 Upgrade installation on a separate Disk from ~2 weeks ago, which I upgraded today.

I used MusicBee to play back FLAC files using the RME ASIO Fw driver (32 Samples Buffersize) no issues.

I also tested my last three Cubase Projects with Cubase 8.5.20.
Changed in the projects to use ASIO Fw driver (before it was set to RayDAT).
Also no issues playing the projects.
2 of them contained only Audio Tracks for mastering purpose.
One contained a mix of Audio Files and VST instruments from Steinberg and 3rd party (Superior Drummer, Trillian, ..).
Also no problems to playback all those projects with lowest settings for Firewire ASIO buffersize (48).

Either your RME unit is broken or your Win installation is screwed up or you have a problem with your mainboard.

You could test your unit on another PC / Laptop.

Maybe also swap cables .. simply try to exclude "all the shit that can happen".

My system specification here: http://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/inde … mponenten/

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro20H2, Cub11Pro, UFX+ (v0.9735), XTC, 12Mic, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

Wow!
Thanks a lot!
Should I assume now that the problem is in my hardware department?
Most likely my motherboard's PCIe ports,or the whole Z170 protocol altogether and it's firewire compatibility?
Or is there a difference in how the UFX handles the RME firewire drivers, compared to my FF400?
Could it be a RAM problem, or should I try something in the bios settings?
Could it be the I7 6700?
I know that it's not the hard drives, because I've tried to record in all of them and had the same issues.
I should also mention that I bought the Cubase 8.5 pro educational edition, since I am a music technology teacher as well.
Thomann told me, there is no difference in specs and workflow with the other version.

Re: pcie firewire card windows 10

My FF400 is working fine with my older computer.
I've already tried different firewire cables.