Topic: Pure insanity!!

Seems every chipset I'm running across is in the 2200 series and it is this very series that RME does not work well with!!! I am beyond frustrated! Why would they (RME) not see to it that their firewire drivers work with what seems to be (at least here in the states) the most widely used chipset? I guess I just needed to vent. Back to the search for a compatible card.

Re: Pure insanity!!

Hello,

the problems with this chipset are known, but not known to be limited to RME devices (much less drivers). Not something we have any influence on, sorry, these issues can not be fixed with changes to the driver.

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

3 (edited by ramses 2017-12-08 13:42:04)

Re: Pure insanity!!

Dark Star Balla wrote:

Seems every chipset I'm running across is in the 2200 series and it is this very series that RME does not work well with!!! I am beyond frustrated! Why would they (RME) not see to it that their firewire drivers work with what seems to be (at least here in the states) the most widely used chipset? I guess I just needed to vent. Back to the search for a compatible card.

Sorry you misunderstand and by this your "shitstorm" goes into the wrong direction.
This is not a driver problem or a problem of RME or something where RME could workaround in their driver.

Its a problem of the TI chipset itself ! It does not issue reliable an Interrupt after the transmission of data. Which is required to tell the RME driver to pick up some new data that just arrived and hand it over to the application layer.

Thats far beyond the influence of RME or any other company.

TI communicated this by telling on their web site in a more general way:
"Not Recommended for New Designs (NRND)"
http://www.ti.com/product/XIO2200A?keyM … =Search-EN

Relax, you are not the only one who stumbled over this .. I had here approx 5 cards with this chipset until I heard about this.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Pure insanity!!

ramses wrote:

Sorry you misunderstand and by this your "shitstorm" goes into the wrong direction.
This is not a driver problem or a problem of RME or something where RME could workaround in their driver.

Its a problem of the TI chipset itself ! It does not issue reliable an Interrupt after the transmission of data. Which is required to tell the RME driver to pick up some new data that just arrived and hand it over to the application layer.

You're correct I did misunderstand that issue. Makes more sense now

TI communicated this by telling on their web site in a more general way:
"Not Recommended for New Designs (NRND)"
http://www.ti.com/product/XIO2200A?keyM … =Search-EN

I'm still confused, is this ALL 2200/2213 etc.. or just 2200A?

Relax, you are not the only one who stumbled over this .. I had here approx 5 cards with this chipset until I heard about this.

Understood but I can't relax, I have so much I need to do and I've been shut down troubleshooting for at least a month?

5 (edited by ramses 2017-12-08 21:04:07)

Re: Pure insanity!!

> I'm still confused, is this ALL 2200/2213 etc.. or just 2200A?

You only need to read ... the yellow box

"Not Recommended for New Designs (NRND)

Replaced By XIO2213B– The device has SIMILAR FUNCTIONALITY but is not functionally equivalent to the compared device. The XIO2213B is feature upgrade to the XIO2200A that supports 1394b in addition to 1394a.

TI does not recommend using this part in a new design. This product continues to be in production to support existing customers."

So XIO2200A is the bogus one and has been replaced by a newer one  XIO2213B.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Pure insanity!!

"Built with a native PCI Express chipset, no bridge chip" <--- This is good? correct?

"Internal power connector for high powered FireWire devices" <--- Does this feature matter?

7 (edited by ramses 2017-12-09 20:27:31)

Re: Pure insanity!!

Dark Star Balla wrote:

"Built with a native PCI Express chipset, no bridge chip" <--- This is good? correct?

For some systems this seems to be important, in some cases it doesnt matter.

Dark Star Balla wrote:

"Internal power connector for high powered FireWire devices" <--- Does this feature matter?

Your recording Interface gets the power from its own power supply so you do not need this.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Pure insanity!!

Oh I see. https://www.startech.com/Cards-Adapters … ~PEX1394B3 This is the card I am ordering now. Heard anything good or bad about it?

Re: Pure insanity!!

Simply try it out, thats the best that you can do.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

10 (edited by Timur Born 2017-12-09 23:43:35)

Re: Pure insanity!!

The card displayed on the Startech image is TI chipset based one. It should work if it was implemented correctly. I own Chinese rebrand card that uses the very same (reference) design and it works. The Startech card seems to use some bigger capacitors according to the image, though, which usually is a plus as long as the quality of said capacitors is good.

It's worth noting that the TI chipset is only "native" PCIe from the outside, internally there still is a PCI bridge present.

In the past Startech sold a card going by the very same name that was a LSI/Agere based (reference) design. I own a Lindy card of same design and it works just as well as the TI based card, except for that it is a true native PCIe chipset with no internal PCI bridge (as far as I know).

My Lindy LSI/Agere based card had problems being properly detected by my Asus AMD Ryzen BIOS. After a shutdown (soft-off) I had to switch PCIe slots to have it detected again. This was solved by one of the latest BIOS versions, so it's not a fault of the card.

Re: Pure insanity!!

Thanks,I guess I'll find out when it gets here.

Re: Pure insanity!!

I just saw this. Think it's a better option? https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0001 … PDKIKX0DER

13 (edited by ramses 2017-12-10 11:30:00)

Re: Pure insanity!!

Look at the connectors / pinout of the card. This is most likely nothing for you.

As from the product description
"Compatible with 3.3V/5V, 32/64-bit PCI or PCI-X slots"

This would only be useable if your mainboard has a PCI slot which is nowadays rare to find.

And this is not the classic PCI anymore, as this will be connected by a bridge chip on the mainboard to PCIe.
PCI was a bus system with parallel data lines (32bits) and interrupt lines of its own.

PCIe is now since years the more modern serial bus allowing for higher bandwidths

https://www.naplestech.com/bus-speeds.html

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Pure insanity!!

Thanks, I'll just stick with the one I ordered.

Re: Pure insanity!!

What mainboard do you have ? Manufacturer, model ?

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Pure insanity!!

ramses wrote:

What mainboard do you have ? Manufacturer, model ?

https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/P8Z77V_LK/

17 (edited by ramses 2017-12-11 07:23:58)

Re: Pure insanity!!

Your mainboard has PCI sockets, but I have made no experience with PCI-X cards in PCI sockets.
Shall be theoretical possible according to product description at Amazon, then you would only use the
1st 32bit PCI connector of the card, but this looks to me like a too "exotic" combination.

64bit PCI was available for some time, but from my perspective never really "hit the market"
and has been replaced by PCIe.

So better 1st try only the card which you bought.

https://www.heise.de/preisvergleich/asu … 71650.html

Formfaktor: ATX • Chipsatz: Intel Z77 • RAM: 4x DDR3 DIMM, dual PC3-19200U/DDR3-2400 (OC), max. 32GB (UDIMM) • Erweiterungsslots: 2x PCIe 3.0 x16 (1x x16, 1x x8), 1x PCIe 2.0 x16 (x4), 2x PCIe 2.0 x1, 2x PCI • Anschlüsse extern: 1x VGA, 1x DVI, 1x HDMI 1.4, 1x DisplayPort 1.1, 4x USB-A 3.0 (Z77/ASM1042), 2x USB-A 2.0, 1x Gb LAN (Realtek RTL8111F), 6x Klinke, 1x Toslink, 1x PS/2 Combo • Anschlüsse intern: 2x USB 3.0 (Z77), 8x USB 2.0, 2x SATA 6Gb/s (Z77), 4x SATA 3Gb/s (Z77), 1x seriell • Header Kühlung: 1x CPU-Lüfter 4-Pin, 3x Lüfter 4-Pin • Header Beleuchtung: N/A • Audio: 7.1 (Realtek ALC892) • RAID-Level: 0/1/5/10 (Z77) • Multi-GPU: NVIDIA 2-Way-SLI (x8/x8), AMD 3-Way-CrossFireX (x8/x8/x4), Lucidlogix Virtu MVP • Stromanschlüsse: 1x 24-Pin ATX, 1x 8-Pin EPS12V • Grafik: IGP (via CPU/APU) • Beleuchtung: N/A • Besonderheiten: All solid capacitors • Herstellergarantie: drei Jahre (Abwicklung nur über Händler)

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Pure insanity!!

Do you use ASIO4All drivers? Are they necessary?

Re: Pure insanity!!

You do not require ASIO4ALL, because you have a real ASIO driver for your RME recording interfaces.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Pure insanity!!

Thanks, just running thru scenarios. I deleted asio4all a while ago and was making sure that didn't cause my issue

21 (edited by ramses 2017-12-12 08:35:23)

Re: Pure insanity!!

Why did you install ASIO4ALL at all ? I think its good that you deinstalled it,
as using ASIO4ALL is IMHO
- not a good thing and
- not "best practises" to build a reliable and professional solution.

The rationale behind ASIO is, that you have an highly optimized audio driver between DAW and your audio hardware with nothing disturbing in between. And under Windows a true ASIO driver like the RME one bypasses i.e. completely the Windows Sound system which is a good thing, as in the windows sound system you have a quality degradation of audio data and increased latencies, etc ...

But ASIO4ALL is an additional layer between the application (DAW) and ASIO and WDM drivers.

ASIO4ALL only became kind of "famous" as kind of a workaround for some folks...
As a DAW can only work with one audio driver this enables you to
- to use an ASIO driver and multiple USB based micros
- different ASIO drivers or
- both in combination

But its an additional layer, which
- adds kind of complexity
- most likely adds latencies
- most likely results in audio data not arriving at the same time in the DAW (as i.e. an USB mic can't be clock synched to other audio interfaces
- results in potentially less quality as the windows sound system is being used along with WDM AFAIR

So ASIO4ALL I personally regard as a "workaround", if somebody did not do a proper planning/design, what recording interface he requires. Its not a professional solution, I would expect a quality degration, but some people are happy with it when it works, as it safes them some money, instead of having to upgrade their solution...

The far better solution is to get the recording interface which satisfies your demands in terms of the amount of required channels.
Or - what is possible with RME and what you did now and should do - to stack up to 2 or 3 of the same recording interface (see manual if and how many RME interfaces in parallel are possible) and leave out ASIO4ALL.

To put another example what could be done nowadays: RMEs new MADIface driver enables me for example to operate 2 UFX+ and an ADI-2 Pro in parallel. As all these interfaces use the same MADIface driver. So when I select in the DAW (i.e. Cubase) the RME MADIface driver, then I have direct access to all the channels of the 3 audio interfaces. They need to have then the same ASIO buffersize configured (easy to do) and of course need to be clock synchronized (I did this by using ADAT and AES channels, WC is not required).

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Pure insanity!!

After install the new card with the same results plus new issues. With the card only recognizing one interface at a time I even tried both the old card and the new card together with 1 interface per card. Similar results. I even went back to just the original syba card. I've come to the conclusion that it's not a firewire issue. I believe it may be a clock/sync issue judging from the sound in the 2nd video. I guess the only other thing I can try is the new card together with 1 interface per card using firewire 400 which I was using before adding the 2nd unit (I wonder if anyone has tried that successfully). Other than that I'll have to figure out a way to get out of these interfaces & firewire. Which I totally can't afford right now.
https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/941537849412898817
https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/940790020348276737

Re: Pure insanity!!

Maybe hire an expert to built this setup?

Re: Pure insanity!!

Not an option. Looking at going back to motu. 828es looks promising.

25 (edited by ramses 2017-12-15 23:01:58)

Re: Pure insanity!!

1. One of the objectives to get a new card was that the red light goes off, where MC mentioned that this doesnt look good.
Is at least this red light problem solved ?
I dont remember that you commented on this ....

2. And then an additional idea .. why do you need 2 FF800 anyway ?
FF800 has 2 ADAT ports IN and OUT !
So you could connect IMHO both mix consoles to one FF800.
This way you do not need the additional complexity/requirement to clock sync the 2 FF800.
Then you could also test both FF800 whether both work as expected.
Theoretically all is possible, maybe one unit slightly damaged.

Or you did mistakes somewhere ...
Therefore it would not be a bad idea to call an expert.
Its easier to do troubleshooting when being directly in front of the devices.
Tthis might even enable you to keep the current HW which is not bad and save you some money in terms of HW.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Pure insanity!!

I lose most of the channels. Each mixer has 32 input & 24 output (I'm using 16) channels going back into the FF800's which was my reason for wanting to add another FF800. in the Adat 2 of the 1st FF800 I have my MV8800, in the adat 2 of my 2nd FF800 I have my ADI-8 Pro.

27 (edited by ramses 2017-12-15 23:23:39)

Re: Pure insanity!!

Sorry, but you didnt answer my 1st question.

BTW .. This shows me again that you are loosing overview about this case.

Get an expert in. maybe he can better find the key issue when being in front of the devices.

BTW .. why do you think the Motu would solve any issues ? Maybe by using USB.
But in terms of the channels it doesnt help you.
It also has only 2 ADAT ports in and out like the FF800.
So you would require 2 new devices.
And then you have again to sync the devices...

You could also get a RME RayDAT (PCIe card).
4 x ADAT IN and OUT.
Optional WC card if you prefer WC (should not be required).
Definitively cheaper compared to 2 new Motus.

But should you require symmetric analog outputs you would require additionally a D/A converter
as the RayDAT has only digital ports.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

28 (edited by Dark Star Balla 2017-12-17 06:12:30)

Re: Pure insanity!!

ramses wrote:

Sorry, but you didnt answer my 1st question.
Sorry,I overlooked this question. Initially the host went off but have since come back on. On both units

BTW .. This shows me again that you are loosing overview about this case.
I've not totally lost sight it's just that my focus keyed in on the sound.

Get an expert in. maybe he can better find the key issue when being in front of the devices.
You guys are saying get an "expert" where do I find such a person?
Would LOVE to get such a person over here to assist (providing they're not too expensive) My goal is to get this setup working properly as soon as possible. I keep posting here in hopes that more people chime in with troubleshooting ideas. It would be ideal to speak with someone who has real world experience with running 2 FF800's on a windows PC.

BTW .. why do you think the Motu would solve any issues ? Maybe by using USB.
But in terms of the channels it doesnt help you.
It also has only 2 ADAT ports in and out like the FF800.
So you would require 2 new devices.
And then you have again to sync the devices...

Yes I do in the sense that USB seems to be more stable then firewire when it comes to PC (firewire is dead/dying anyway). 2 of the motu units price wise would be doable by selling my ff800's and another thing or 2 (keep in mind this is an absolute last resort). Reading the information on the 828es syncing is as simple as plugging into the ethernet connection. I had 828 mk2 before switching to the FF800. I preferred the converters in the ff800.

You could also get a RME RayDAT (PCIe card).
4 x ADAT IN and OUT.
Optional WC card if you prefer WC (should not be required).
Definitively cheaper compared to 2 new Motus.
Just the Raydat is $1000 u.s. Way out of my budget. I can't even take on a client right now. to earn cash so it's imperative that I get up and running asap

Re: Pure insanity!!

Timur Born wrote:

My Lindy LSI/Agere based card had problems being properly detected by my Asus AMD Ryzen BIOS. After a shutdown (soft-off) I had to switch PCIe slots to have it detected again. This was solved by one of the latest BIOS versions, so it's not a fault of the card.

This was solved by a later BIOS update from Asus. So the card itself is not so much to blame. Still look out for possible issues with certain mainboards.

Re: Pure insanity!!

Not sure whether you are aware of ... He opened ~2 threads around this issue and finally posted the solution in another new thread, having it solved now by using two FW400 cards. Would be too easy to have this in one posting.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Pure insanity!!

Yes, I noticed. Just made sure to get the information over to anyone who read my Lindy (LSI/Agere) remark before. wink

Re: Pure insanity!!

wink

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13