1 (edited by alligatorlizard 2018-01-05 18:07:48)

Topic: Best settings for electric guitar DI - inst/pad etc. FF400

Hi,

If I set input 3 to "inst" (which is definitely needed for a DI) the level clips slightly when DI'ing an electric guitar. If I also select "pad", and increase the gain setting (also in the RME settings) by about 3db, it's fine, peaks at around -2db.

However I just wanted to check what exactly "pad" is doing...

The manual says it "reduces sensitivity by 6db", but if you select "pad", and increase gain to +6db (all in the RME settings), this does not sound the same as no pad, gain at 0. To confirm what I'm hearing, the waveform I'm seeing in cubase is different (smaller, and seems to have less dynamic range when pad selected, even if gain pushed up by 6db). So it doesn't seem to be as simple as "pad" just reducing the input level by 6db. I'm guessing the key is in the word "sensitivity" - but what exactly does this mean?

Another option is to leave "pad" unchecked, and route the guitar thru an fx box before reaching the FF400, reducing gain on the fx box by a few db (and of course bypassing fx) so it doesn't clip. Now this seems to result in a better sound, and the waveform has more dynamic range than if I select "pad".

Can anyone explain why this is? And what the best settings should be - in theory - to get the very best DI sound from my guitars pickups?

Incidentally, my pickups are not active, and I'm running the signal into Cubase 8 and then Amplitube.

Thanks!

2 (edited by ramses 2018-01-05 18:21:53)

Re: Best settings for electric guitar DI - inst/pad etc. FF400

alligatorlizard wrote:

If I set input 3 to "inst" (which is definitely needed for a DI) the level clips slightly when DI'ing an electric guitar. If I also select "pad", and increase the gain setting (also in the RME settings) by about 3db, it's fine, peaks at around -2db.

Just to be sure, do you plug your electric guitar or a D/I box to the Instrument input of FF400 ?

Or do you have already a D/I box to which you connect your guitar and then the D/I box to the recording interface ?
If yes, which D/I box do you use (URL, .. ) ?

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Best settings for electric guitar DI - inst/pad etc. FF400

wise question, and the right one, too, Ramses.

because if DI means "injecting the instrument directly as such", the INST option is there for this very purpose, and (unless you're considering an instrument with active pickups and/or electronics) it is quite a needed feature.

conversely, if DI is shorthand for DI Box, then you may not want to select the INST option, and rather find that the PAD option comes in handy, if such DI Box has a line-level output that veers on the hot side.

manual says "Pad decreases input sensitiviy by 12 dB to prevent overload", not 6; so if you press Pad and raise gain by 6 dB, you'll track 6 dB lower than unity, which probably translates into "less punchy" or "less detailed", with "less lows" and "less highs" (in the most general and non-exact jargon).

but it might help to figure out the big picture, if you'd stop and consider how guitar "sound" (again, of instruments with "traditional" passive pickups) has a lot more to do with impedance (namely, with the ratio between pickups- and input impedance) than simple level alone.

the difference you may be experiencing (as "a better sound" is hard to objectively describe) is most likely due to impedance, rather than level difference.

this also tells why manual's sentence starts with a previous statement, which reads: "activating the option INST, the input impedance is raised to 470kOhm, and the input sensitivity is increased by 10 dB".

an fx box before the input exhibits a completely different behaviour, in terms of both impedance and, again, level: as an active device (it means "powered") it has an output impedance of much lower value than guitar pickups, and is as such less susceptible to the effect of input impedance of the device where it's plugged into.

this translates with what you might appreciate as both a better sound, and a more stable signal, meaning its frequency spectrum might change less at different level settings.

in our current, modern-age, strongly visual-driven culture, it's easy to understand why impedance is so often ignored, when judging cause and effect of audio circuits and the sound signature they produce.

you easily have all sorts of level indication on hardware, software and virtual devices, even when you really do not need them at all, fake moving-coil VU meter included, but no clue about the impedance of what you plug in or out of such devices.

not that the impedance of a circuit is as easy to read out as level is, on any piece of common audio hardware.

but being surrounded only by level indicators at every step, as most end users are, shows why impedance is often a mysterious topic to many. and tells why certain urban myths easily propagate across the globe, without a grain of salt in gauging the explanations that are often (not) given behind the mere "sounds warmer" or "sounds sterile" statements that you can read from most spontaneous bloggers

4 (edited by alligatorlizard 2018-01-08 16:32:30)

Re: Best settings for electric guitar DI - inst/pad etc. FF400

Thanks for the detailed info!

By DI, I just meant plugging guitar straight into input 3 - no extra DI box. And the fx box I'm using to lower the level is just a zoom multi-fx box, with all fx bypassed, but output level reduced slightly. Could this be changing impedance, not just level?

Now I've googled impedance, and understand the basic definition, but to be honest I'm still not fully understanding how it affects the sound in practical terms. However I definitely can hear the difference in sound when "INST" option activated, and therefore the impedance is raised - and not just the volume, it sounds "better" - and yes, hard to define "better".... crisper, clearer, more dynamic. Anyway, this option is clearly needed in this case.

I guess the question is, does activating the "PAD" option affect impedance? Or is it in any way affecting the signal in any way other than volume reduction? I'd certainly rather use the PAD option (and then boost the signal as needed using the gain slider within the same RME options box) - is there any reason, in terms of sound/signal quality not to do this?

btw, my manual definitely say 6db reduction with "PAD" - could be misprint though?

5

Re: Best settings for electric guitar DI - inst/pad etc. FF400

PAD does not change the impedance. And the circuit was changed in 2006 to provide 12 dB PAD.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Best settings for electric guitar DI - inst/pad etc. FF400

MC wrote:

PAD does not change the impedance. And the circuit was changed in 2006 to provide 12 dB PAD.

Thanks, good to know!

Nonetheless, I'm sure it sounds different, subtly - e.g. pad off vs pad on plus gain slider at +12db

Of course I'm comparing wave files which are two different takes of the same part, so it's hard to analyse, as it's impossible to play the same part exactly the same way twice - hence why I'm here asking about what's going on technically. But consistently I'm finding when recording with pad on, it's slightly less crisp and clear and dynamic.

Is there any technical reason why this should be the case?

Re: Best settings for electric guitar DI - inst/pad etc. FF400

OK, am revisiting this as I've just been recording more guitars and still struggling to get the best input levels.

Have tested extensively, and with PAD on (and level boosted elsewhere by 12db to compensate), sounds different than with PAD off and level at 0.

It's crisper, more detailed without PAD. With PAD, even if I boost the level afterwards by 12db, the sound degrades slightly.

Is this simply because, when I'm boosting the level by 12db on the version with PAD, it's also bringing up any noise in the signal?

Still feel like I don't have quite the right options on the FF400 here. For guitar DI, you need INST. But then it clips. So you need PAD - but then it's too low, needs boosting, and this (I'm guessing?) brings up the noise level and degrades the signal.

Do I have any options here other than just going with the INST & PAD both selected option, and accepting a slight (but definitely noticeable) degradation of the signal?

8

Re: Best settings for electric guitar DI - inst/pad etc. FF400

Mentioned in the manual. Use any of the foot-FX lying around as impedance buffer. Then you have full sound without the Inst option and correct levels.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Best settings for electric guitar DI - inst/pad etc. FF400

MC wrote:

Mentioned in the manual. Use any of the foot-FX lying around as impedance buffer. Then you have full sound without the Inst option and correct levels.

Hi.  Can you clarify what you mean by "use any of the foot-FX lying around" ?

Re: Best settings for electric guitar DI - inst/pad etc. FF400

please clarify what this means.  i am having same issue as first poster when using INST input 3 with my elec guitars, especialy those with EMG pickups.

Re: Best settings for electric guitar DI - inst/pad etc. FF400

https://i.imgur.com/WLJOWeB.jpg

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Re: Best settings for electric guitar DI - inst/pad etc. FF400

Your support is quite hilarious and I get the humor and brevity in the responses.  A pic of a Boss pedal made me laugh.

So you are suggesting to run my guitar cable into any old crap-tastic BOSS PEDAL but bypass the effect, using it as you say "any old foot fx laying about".  I googled the CH-1 and I learn:

BOSS CH-1 Super Chorus Effects Pedal Features:
Input Impedance: 1 Mohms. Output Impedance: 10 Kohms or greater.

So you are basically wanting us to let our guitar pickups see a proper 1M ohm impedance from a pedal and then feed our RME device this 10K ohm signal out of the pedal.

Since the boss sends a 10kohm signal out into the 470k ohm INST level input, this should in theory help the sound be better?

Any of my guitars with big strings and nice hot EMG pickups will clip the bejeezus out of the IN3 or IN4.  I have to engage pad but that takes "balls" away from the sound.  I have one guitar that does not clip the input and it's a sweet as hell Ibanez JEM with a PAF in it.

13 (edited by nateandrews 2020-04-24 19:26:44)

Re: Best settings for electric guitar DI - inst/pad etc. FF400

So, the output of the Boss pedal being 10kohm, is that a point where one could possibly run that signal as LINE LEVEL into IN3 or IN4 and not need the PAD? 

All I know is if I plug my guitar into IN3 on my FireFace 400 when set to INST, I have to engage the PAD so I do not clip, but doing so really takes away balls and meat off the tone.  I'm a high gain guy and that is why I say this. I own zero pedals, let alone a BOSS CH-1 Super Chorus.

First poster is right.  When pad is engaged for INST, it messes with the tone and it's not the same as a NON PAD sound vs. PAD sound with dB raised up to compensate.

I love the interface and drivers and I know it's old as hell but it still works great and I'd probably be a moron to replace it with a Focusrite Clarett 4Pre.

Re: Best settings for electric guitar DI - inst/pad etc. FF400

So I borrowed a MAXON OD-9 pedal (500k ohm only input not the 1M ohm of the Boss) and I have the OD-9 going to IN3 of the FF400 but set to LINE LEVEL.  I'm able to brutally hammer and defile my EMG equipped Charvel with my picking hand and NOT CLIP!  Is this a common thing for guys to do?  Use  a pedal and LINE LEVEL so we don't clip?

Re: Best settings for electric guitar DI - inst/pad etc. FF400

Hello, again!

It must be a common thing for guitars with high output active pickups, since it's mentioned in the manual, as well!

As, I think, you allready know, EMGs involve active circuitry to boost the signal. It's like having a passive pickup with a booster in front of the instrument input. That's why I think it clips! (apart from the impedance aspect)

Can you try with a guitar with high output passive pickups? Borrow from a friend, maybe?

RME Gear: Digiface USB, HDSP 9632

Re: Best settings for electric guitar DI - inst/pad etc. FF400

It clips with EMG because they are so hot.  I am experimenting with a crappy pedal in front and using LINE instead of INST level.  It just clips way too easily when sent to INST and using PAD really does garfunkle the sound.

17 (edited by MetalHeadKeys 2020-04-29 02:40:39)

Re: Best settings for electric guitar DI - inst/pad etc. FF400

Yeah, I know they 're hot! Which EMGs are they?

I suppose they 're active, as most of them are. If you want to properly record DI guitars, you 'd need a passive DI box, like this one:

https://www.thomann.de/gb/radial_engineering_jdi.htm

You 'll need to connect it to an XLR Input, though.

If your EMGs are passive, you 'd need an active DI box, like this one:

https://www.thomann.de/gb/radial_engineering_j_48.htm or

https://www.thomann.de/gb/rupert_neve_designs_rndi.htm

to an XLR Input and Phantom Power "On".

RME Gear: Digiface USB, HDSP 9632

Re: Best settings for electric guitar DI - inst/pad etc. FF400

Mainly EMG 81 bridge and EMG 85 neck.  I have a "problem" and currently own 60 guitars.
It seems crazy that a DI box is "mandatory" versus just plugging directly into the INST input.
I understand EMG's are very HOT and this is why the PAD exists.  I use INST and engage PAD and it removes clipping, but just as first poster said the tone is different.  It is not just a quieter less clipping sound, its a diff sound. balls and meat are gone.

For the time being, I will use the borrowed stomp pedal and feed the LINE input with the 10k ohm output of the pedal.  Technically speaking, 10kohm is still considered INST level, is it not?

I love this interface, the fireface400.  i love the totalmix now that i understand, and i love the latency and the rock solid performacne in cubase.  the only flaw as i see it, is the INST input.

Many interfaces I see are 1M ohm or as just confirmed by Focusrite, the Clarett 4PRE has a 2.3M Ohm inst input.

I understand that even the hottest guitar kohm is like 25khom and you need 10 times that, so 250k ohm should be good, but I do think an INST input on a DAW interface (or in general) should be 1M ohm or higher for Hi-Z but I'm sure RME has a valid reason for making this one 470k ohm, they are a very smart group of folks.  I don't know what that reason is.

Re: Best settings for electric guitar DI - inst/pad etc. FF400

Get one of the newer interfaces and then you have your 1M Ohm on Instr Input.
If you have 60 Guitars then you maybe have the money not having to work with a 15+y old interface wink
Or as an alternative get a proper DI box with proper line level output and plug that one to the FF400.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Best settings for electric guitar DI - inst/pad etc. FF400

LOL!!!  Touche!!!  This made me LOL, for real.  Hahah.

Yes....  I guess I will look for COUNTRYMAN TYPE 85 or just do the other method I've been doing which is guitar into the KEMPER RACK (with 1M ohm input!) and then feeding the RME via SPDIF out of the Kemper.  This works very well in fact, but the point is that I wanted to also be able to use the INST input.  I'm not able to get the SPDIF to even come close to clipping and this is with VERY aggressive right hand on thick strings tuned down with an EMG81!