Topic: UFX+ with Thunderbolt Problems on Win10

For most of 2018, I was using a UFX+ with a Thunderbolt connection through the StarTech TB1/2 to TB3 adapter to a Lenovo P71 laptop (loaded up with Xeon, dual SSDs, tons of RAM, TB3, 4K screen and discrete graphics, etc...).  This worked flawlessly with no issues at all for at least 100 recordings (mostly on location classical).  Never a single problem or issue.  I did not update the RME drivers when the new drivers with the Remote TotalMix FX were announced - everything was working and no need for remote. 

However, in late 2018 (around October or November), suddenly the Thunderbolt connection started producing much static and then just locking up the P71 computer completely.  Total lock (no mouse, frozen meters on screen and TotalMix, etc.).  Total reboot required.  However, everything continued to work fine if USB connection and USB driver were used.   

I suspect this was tied to the October auto-pushed update of Windows 10.   I've tried many things - here's a partial list:

1 - Tried with a 2nd UFX+ also here - same result, no fix.  Same problems with either UFX+
2 - Tried with a 2nd StarTech TB adapter - same result, no fix.
3 - Tried with multiple TB cables (all nice OWC cables) - same result, no fix.
4 - Updated all RME drivers and Firmware (both UFX+ units) to latest - same result, no fix.
5 - Updated P71 computer BIOS, and TB firmware to latest versions - same result, no fix
6 - Tried with multiple DAW software - same result with either Reaper or Samplitude.

Finally gave up and was just using USB for recordings.  Never any issue with USB.

In late December, we added new Lenovo P72 laptop (also fully loaded, SSD, XEON 6 core, TB3, etc...)

Loaded latest USB and Thunderbolt drivers.  Both UFX+ units already have latest firmware.

Tried recording with Thunderbolt to new P72 computer this weekend  (using USB on P71 as backup with other UFX+).  Experienced similar Thunderbolt problems, but not total machine lockup.

In particular, with new P72 computer.  I can open TotalMix FX and control the UFX+ just fine with TB connections (again, through StarTech adapter).   I can plug headphones into UFX+ and monitor incoming microphones.  All is fine and clear.   In this case UFX+ is/was clocking on it's internal clock.  (Other UFX+ was clocking on incoming MADI, but lock-ups happened regardless of clock source, internal or MADI).    So in this new situation, I can monitor audio just fine, UNTIL I start up Reaper.   As soon as Reaper accesses the TB Asio driver, I get pops, tics, and some static in the headphones.  Just by starting Reaper with TB as the audio device!   The same thing happens with Samplitude if TB is set as the audio device.  In the case of Samplitude, even opening a new project with NO tracks still starts the ticking and popping in the headphones plugged direction into the UFX+ and monitoring the INPUTS only (NOT the returns from the DAW).   Close either DAW, and the ticking and popping stops.   

With the P72, the USB driver also works flawlessly.   The problem is only with the TB driver.

So, I'm looking for help and direction.   I've searched the forum here, but not found any similar issues. 

Doesn't seem likely to be hardware, since the problems are with multiple computers and multiple UFX+'s with multiple TB adapters.  AND - don't forget the TB ran flawlessly with the P71 for at least 9 months in the end of 2017 and the first part of 2018.   NO HARDWARE CHANGES were made.  No drivers were updated (Win10 set to NOT update drivers).  The only change was the forced update of Win10.

The timing of the problem would indicate that perhaps the Win10 update in the fall of 2018 is the culprit.  Any other reports of this?   Anything to try?   

Thanks in advance!

Re: UFX+ with Thunderbolt Problems on Win10

Additional info I forgot to mention in first post:

Buffers are usually set at 512 or 1024.   Going larger or smaller doesn't make any difference

Clock rate is always 44.1

Channel count is quite modest - usually about 12 or so inputs, a couple of hardware outputs, and 3 or 4 stereo outputs from DAW

Thanks...

3 (edited by ramses 2019-01-21 15:04:59)

Re: UFX+ with Thunderbolt Problems on Win10

The most interesting point here would have been that you mention with which version of Win10 thunderbolt worked or not.
I assume you had 1804 (April Upgrade) and have been upgraded to 1809 where it didn't work.

You should do backups (diskimages) with Macrium Reflect, then you could restore in "no time" to the previous state.
With their Rapid Delta Restore mechanism they restore only disk blocks that need to be changed.

Therefore it's possible on my machine to perform a full restore in 10-15 minutes although I have a 1TB disk
where more than 600 GB are in use.

And I would make one additional disk image after every successfull Win10 upgrade to have
some different working Win10 disk images from which you could restore to 1709, 1804, 1809 ...

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: UFX+ with Thunderbolt Problems on Win10

Thanks Ramses,
Your suggestions are good, of course, but I'm not certain it was an 1804 to 1809 issue - I just suspect it.   

The problem with what you suggest is that it doesn't actually solve the problem.  Win10 is just going to upgrade back to 1809 next time it sees a network connection anyway - I've tried a lot, and haven't been able to stop it.  As just a single example, I used to disable the Windows upgrade service, but that doesn't work any longer either. 

I DO have a hot-swappable, bootable backup SSD system drive which was imaged at the working state.   I haven't tried dropping that in, just because it would involve disassembling to do a boot drive swap and then, after all that,  it would ONLY prove that it used to work with a previous configuration.   I already KNOW that it used to work with a previous configuration!!

If I drop that disk in or even restore directly from that disk, as you say, then I'm at a working configuration - until Win10 updates again next time it sees a network.  Just doesn't seem like a workable path forward.   Especially with two very recent and very powerful Lenovo workstation-class machines.   One of which has never seen anything but 1809, so there's no 1804 to revert to anyway.   

I hope that RME's position is NOT that TB only works with 1804 and previous - we come to RME for the best drivers in the business.

Any ideas on how to get this working on 1809?    That's the real question.

Thanks!

5 (edited by ramses 2019-01-21 19:45:47)

Re: UFX+ with Thunderbolt Problems on Win10

With O&OShutup10 you might be able to prevent an update for a longer time.

At least the restore is a chance to find out, whether this is really an Win10 update issue, which is one step further !

You could even try 1 month later whether Microsoft worked on it and whether an upgrade works then.

This is better than simply to wait passively without knowning whether it was better before the upgrade or not.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: UFX+ with Thunderbolt Problems on Win10

Interested in this.  My trusty UFX+ also stopped working well with my Win10 machine this year.  Assumed it was the port on my desktop mobo.  Bought a new ASUS laptop that as TB4 port and decided to test it on this machine.  Simply plugging the UFX+ into the laptop causes it to Blue Screen crash instantly. With the UFX+ TB plugged in the machine will not even boot (straight to blue screen). 

Is there something in the UFX+ firmware that is not working well with Win10 latest TB updates?

7

Re: UFX+ with Thunderbolt Problems on Win10

If you use the latest UFX+ firmware and TB drivers then I dare to put all the blame on ASUS. But how did you connect this TB1 device to TB 4?

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

8 (edited by soundslikejoe 2022-03-22 21:57:36)

Re: UFX+ with Thunderbolt Problems on Win10

MC wrote:

If you use the latest UFX+ firmware and TB drivers then I dare to put all the blame on ASUS. But how did you connect this TB1 device to TB 4?


There are no devices made with legacy TB1/2 ports.  Even my several year old desktop doesn't have that port, and I've been required to use the Apple TB3 adapter since Day 1 of purchasing the UFX+   ... that was the recommended product for connecting the UFX+ to my TB3 ports on the Gigabyte Z390. 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ … iZEALw_wcB 


Used the same cable+adapter for both machines.

9

Re: UFX+ with Thunderbolt Problems on Win10

It's nice when it works (Apple), but it is no reference and not guaranteed. There are hosts where it  does not work. The Startech adapter does work, always. Doesn't mean it's the issue here, though.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: UFX+ with Thunderbolt Problems on Win10

MC wrote:

It's nice when it works (Apple), but it is no reference and not guaranteed. There are hosts where it  does not work. The Startech adapter does work, always. Doesn't mean it's the issue here, though.

Excellent lead!  Haven't found that option, but will order one and try.


Assuming this is the one...
https://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-Thu … B019FPJDQ2

11

Re: UFX+ with Thunderbolt Problems on Win10

Yes.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME