Topic: Pre Purchase Question ADI-2 DAC

Planned use = Home Audio as DAC & PreAmp

Music source Nas Drive with 16/44 Flac files

Transport Raspberry Pi3 with Allo DigiOne Signature

Question will the ADI-2 Dac upsample prior to sending to pre-outs

If not would it be better to have the Flac files upsampled at conversion to Flac

Thanks

Re: Pre Purchase Question ADI-2 DAC

JImMeader wrote:

Planned use = Home Audio as DAC & PreAmp

Music source Nas Drive with 16/44 Flac files

Transport Raspberry Pi3 with Allo DigiOne Signature

Question will the ADI-2 Dac upsample prior to sending to pre-outs

If not would it be better to have the Flac files upsampled at conversion to Flac

Thanks


try without upsampling for a bit. you might be surprised how well the DAC processes the natively sampled file. as for upsampling... I leave that up to the music player on my computer. in my case it is HQ Player (paid app and not cheap) which does the upsampling with the help of my graphics card (Nvidia TitanX). I do realize the PI doesn't possess the same power, but as I mentioned the ADI2 DAC has the ability to extract the maximum from the file passed to it. in the mean time you could further your research into Ras PI solutions all the while enjoying your newly acquired DAC.

I have found a poorly engineered or mastered track will not sound proper regardless of the resolution it is stored at.

3 (edited by ramses 2019-05-25 19:17:51)

Re: Pre Purchase Question ADI-2 DAC

It's one of these (silly) HiFi Myths ... Upsampling audio doesn't make the quality better. The quality is like it is.

In one of the postings here this has been clarified / confirmed also by RME (Matthias Carstens).

It's only marketing to sell you hard- or software on top that you do not require.

It only makes the files longer and creates a bit more system load because more data need to be processed
and send across USB by double / quad sample rates (88.2 - 192 kHz).

Upsampling makes only sense in situations where devices do not support a certain sample rate
which you use in your current project / setup, so this is more related to studio work.

SRC is one of the features, which is typically only required in studios, that had to be "sacrificed"
to be able to offer the ADI-2 DAC for under €1000.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, Win10 Pro 1909, Cubase, UFX+, Octamic XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS BE/R BE, RayDAT, ARC USB

4 (edited by jiw 2019-05-25 20:28:52)

Re: Pre Purchase Question ADI-2 DAC

ramses wrote:

It's one of these (silly) HiFi Myths ... Upsampling audio doesn't make the quality better. The quality is like it is.

In one of the postings here this has been clarified / confirmed also by RME (Matthias Carstens).

Relevant quote (post #2 from this thread: https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=26952):

MC wrote:

But the point is a different one: whenever you upsample the data has to be filtered. This filter is exactly the same as when using the DAC itself in Single Speed, and can also be seen in the upsampled result. So you gain nothing.


ramses wrote:

Upsampling makes only sense in situations where devices do not support a certain sample rate
which you use in your current project / setup, so this is more related to studio work.

Upsampling also makes sense if the reconstruction filters of the DAC have poor rejection (low attenuation) of out-of-band content (above Nyquist freq.) at the file's sample rate (single speed), like e.g. NOS DACs (or the ADI-2 DAC with the NOS filter). So it has some relevance to Hi-Fi use.

There is also another possible use for oversampling: Changing the filter characteristics at single speed. This is because the characteristics of the oversampling filter will (most likely) dominate the characteristics of the DAC's filter at the higher sample rate of the upsampled content. For more on this, have a look at these blog posts:
https://archimago.blogspot.com/2017/12/ … al_23.html
https://archimago.blogspot.com/2018/01/ … lters.html
https://archimago.blogspot.com/2018/01/ … gital.html

5 (edited by ramses 2019-05-25 21:26:22)

Re: Pre Purchase Question ADI-2 DAC

He didn't tell anything about NOS in his post.

NOS is maybe a different story, but who really requires it or is able to hear a clear difference ?!
In this regards I focus more on MCs point "So you gain nothing."

Besides this .. the proper answer to his question is, the ADI-2 DAC has no chip inside for SRC.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, Win10 Pro 1909, Cubase, UFX+, Octamic XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS BE/R BE, RayDAT, ARC USB

6 (edited by jiw 2019-11-11 20:18:49)

Re: Pre Purchase Question ADI-2 DAC

ramses wrote:

He didn't tell anything about NOS in his post.

NOS is maybe a different story, but who really requires it or is able to hear a clear difference ?!
In this regards I focus more on MCs point "So you gain nothing."

You said in post #3

ramses wrote:

Upsampling makes only sense [...]

I thought it would also be sensible to use it for other reasons.

NOS DACs seem to have made a bit of a comeback in Hi-Fi circles. However, I would not expect that the buyers of these devices care much about proper band-limiting filtering if at all.

Anyways, please let's not make this thread about the (f)utility of NOS DACs.

Regarding the ADI-2 DAC, you gain very little, if anything, by upsampling the data before transmission to the DAC that cannot be obtained by using the DAC's built in filters at single speed.

ramses wrote:

Besides this .. the proper answer to his question is, the ADI-2 DAC has no chip inside for SRC.

How I read OP's post, for that case, OP asked about upsampling before sending the data to the DAC.

JImMeader wrote:

Question will the ADI-2 Dac upsample prior to sending to pre-outs

If not would it be better to have the Flac files upsampled at conversion to Flac

Also, from what I can skim from AKM's block diagram for the AK4490EQ, it seems to do 8x oversampling (interpolation) of PCM input. I don't think this is what OP is asking about but it might be.

https://www.akm.com/global/en/products/ … /ak4490eq/, bottom

Re: Pre Purchase Question ADI-2 DAC

I think we all agree what ever is on the CD does not get better no matter what you do to it, as they say it is what it is.

Having said that, most CD players take the CD ( RedBook 16/44 ) file and within its internal DAC it up-samples it prior to sending the signal to the amp. While this up-sampling does not make the basic track better it generally makes the resulting amplified sound "Different" which why they do it and is why I asked the question.

The reason I choose 16/44 Flac file format was because most CD players ( with their own dac's ) are expecting a 16/44 file signal, so my thought process was to provide a "DAC" with what it was expecting and then have it process the sound its own way.

I understand there is nothing wrong or bad with the 16/44. Within the DigiOne Signature  ( a analog to digital device only not a Dac) I can send out the digital signal via( BNC or Digital RCA ) in any format I choose even beyond 24/192. So what would the ADI-2 Dac do differently with a 24/192 signal versus a 16/44 signal. Would it process it as it is, would it down sample back to 16/44 or what.

BTW with Moode Player software and a RPI/DigiOne Signature setup, most people would be amazed at how great it sounds. This is a great combo when your music is on a NAS drive.

DigiOne Signature    https://www.allo.com/sparky/digione-signature.html

Re: Pre Purchase Question ADI-2 DAC

JImMeader wrote:

I think we all agree what ever is on the CD does not get better no matter what you do to it, as they say it is what it is.

Having said that, most CD players take the CD ( RedBook 16/44 ) file and within its internal DAC it up-samples it prior to sending the signal to the amp. While this up-sampling does not make the basic track better it generally makes the resulting amplified sound "Different" which why they do it and is why I asked the question.

The reason I choose 16/44 Flac file format was because most CD players ( with their own dac's ) are expecting a 16/44 file signal, so my thought process was to provide a "DAC" with what it was expecting and then have it process the sound its own way.

I understand there is nothing wrong or bad with the 16/44. Within the DigiOne Signature  ( a analog to digital device only not a Dac) I can send out the digital signal via( BNC or Digital RCA ) in any format I choose even beyond 24/192. So what would the ADI-2 Dac do differently with a 24/192 signal versus a 16/44 signal. Would it process it as it is, would it down sample back to 16/44 or what.

BTW with Moode Player software and a RPI/DigiOne Signature setup, most people would be amazed at how great it sounds. This is a great combo when your music is on a NAS drive.

DigiOne Signature    https://www.allo.com/sparky/digione-signature.html

if the file is 176.4 k the DAC reports it that way

9 (edited by jiw 2019-07-08 17:51:49)

Re: Pre Purchase Question ADI-2 DAC

JImMeader wrote:

I think we all agree what ever is on the CD does not get better no matter what you do to it, as they say it is what it is.

Having said that, most CD players take the CD ( RedBook 16/44 ) file and within its internal DAC it up-samples it prior to sending the signal to the amp. While this up-sampling does not make the basic track better it generally makes the resulting amplified sound "Different" which why they do it and is why I asked the question.

The oversampling in those DACs is in order to do some of the filtering in the digital domain which allows for less complex analog filters on the output. This (and/or the accompanying marketing) can be used to make the DACs produce a 'sound' of its own.

JImMeader wrote:

The reason I choose 16/44 Flac file format was because most CD players ( with their own dac's ) are expecting a 16/44 file signal, so my thought process was to provide a "DAC" with what it was expecting and then have it process the sound its own way.

I understand there is nothing wrong or bad with the 16/44. Within the DigiOne Signature  ( a analog to digital device only not a Dac) I can send out the digital signal via( BNC or Digital RCA ) in any format I choose even beyond 24/192. So what would the ADI-2 Dac do differently with a 24/192 signal versus a 16/44 signal. Would it process it as it is, would it down sample back to 16/44 or what.

BTW with Moode Player software and a RPI/DigiOne Signature setup, most people would be amazed at how great it sounds. This is a great combo when your music is on a NAS drive.

DigiOne Signature    https://www.allo.com/sparky/digione-signature.html

The DACs in CD-players are designed to only convert 16/44 to analog. Contrary to this, the ADI-2 DAC is not designed for a particular bit depth and sample rate combination. However, the filter characteristics are dependent on the sample rate. High sample rate content (88.2 kHz and above) does not require as steep a filter as content sampled at 44.1 kHz or 48 kHz in order to obtain a 20 kHz bandwidth and removal (at least strong attenuation) of content above the Nyquist frequency (half the sample rate). Thus, to put it in your words, the ADI-2 DAC would process 24/192 as it is.

For some characteristics of the ADI-2 DAC's filters, take a look at the manual p. 56-57. Manual: https://archiv.rme-audio.de/download/adi2dac_e.pdf.

Also, the DigiOne is not an ADC it is a transport that receives a digital signal and sends out a digital signal. Otherwise, what would be the point of sending its signal to the ADI-2 DAC if you already had the signal in analog form?

Re: Pre Purchase Question ADI-2 DAC

Thanks everyone   Will be moving forward with my purchase

For me basically the DAC will take what I feed it so that works for my home listening use

Besides the RPi and Allo DigiOne signature, will probably try a Mac Mini running audirvana from what I read that combination provides a lot of flexibility and I can use the USB connection 

Thanks again

11 (edited by bejoro 2019-05-29 13:34:21)

Re: Pre Purchase Question ADI-2 DAC

A good and completely silent solition for little money is an ODROID C2 (or XU4Q or N2).
Unlike the RPi 1/2/3 the USB and the network interface are seperated with the ODROID SBCs.

With UBUNTU (minimum install without GUI), MPD as player and upmpdcli (installable from ppa) as remote DLNA client controller for mpd you get a perfect music network player for an ADI-2 PRO/DAC using USB.

A perfect and very comfortable DLNA conntroller app would be Bubbleupnp (Android).
Minimserver for Windows/OSX/Linux/NAS as a lean, fast and versatile DLNA server.

Another recommendation for Windows and OSX is JRiver Media Center, very powerful and everything included.

Warm regards,
Bernhard Rother
enjoy-audio.de

12 (edited by maartenl 2019-05-29 14:31:48)

Re: Pre Purchase Question ADI-2 DAC

I use RPi Zero W with Justboom Digi Zero HAT (use S/PDIF to feed ADI-2 Dac).

Have mpd (player), MinimServer (mediaserver), O!MPD (web based mpd client) and upmpdcli (DLNA/OpenHome UPnP media renderer) installed. Works like a charm. Really can endorse these setup.

Use DietPi (extremely lightweight Debian OS) in a headless configuration.

As DLNA controller app I use Linn's Kazoo (also supports radio, Tidal and Qobuz). Radio stations to be configured in upmpdcli config file (or separate file that's being referred to in upmpdcli's config file) or just O!MPD which bypasses upmpdcli and MinimServer but requires music files to be stored locally which I partly have (400 GB MicroSD card).

Re: Pre Purchase Question ADI-2 DAC

The RPi and digital music add on boards offer a lot of options for the person willing to try. I have enjoyed my experience and the the resulting music it presents in my system. 

There are many well established and supported operating system that by default provide a well designed web interface which make using these system simple and enjoyable.

Re: Pre Purchase Question ADI-2 DAC

ramses wrote:

NOS is maybe a different story, but who really requires it or is able to hear a clear difference ?!

I do.
Absolutely prefer NOS filter mode for my Teac NT-503 (2 x AK4490). For both main speakers and high impedance headphones setup.
Waiting for ADI-2 DAC to arrive (exclusively for low impedance Fostex TH900Mk2), hopefully it will work in the same manner.
Music is jazz 80% and classics 20%.
Have no idea what filter mode is more appropriate for pop, rock etc..

15 (edited by Curt962 2019-06-02 19:54:11)

Re: Pre Purchase Question ADI-2 DAC

Let me Chime in if I may...

I myself was convinced briefly that NOS was the best, until I tested/compared in a completely Level-Matched Scenario.

I had to refer to the Manual, and ensure that my comparison was valid.   This was an Eye-Opener.   

Refer to this comment:

Hello All!

Wouldn''t it be nice to TRULY Hear the difference between NOS, and SD Sharp?

With my newfound ability to maneuver through "Set Ups" on the ADI-2 DAC like a Pro, I've discovered that in order to make VALID comparisons between Set-Ups, there is one essential condition that must be satisfied in order for the comparison to have any Scientific Validity.  LEVEL!!

When Storing a Set Up, the ADI-2 Stores the ENTIRE STATE of the Unit.  Including your current Volume Setting.   This Value MUST remain Constant for all your Set Ups.   Also, at Playback, your Vol. Level must agree with this stored Value, else there will be Level Change when Switching between Set Ups.

Even a Second of Re-adjusting Volume to Compensate completely invalidates the Comparison.  The Louder Set Up will invariably be your preference.

Do this, and when Comparing DAC Filters, etc...The difference in Filters, etc is ALL you hear...not a confusing Level Change.


Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic Edition"
Cables:  Red Ones, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes (2)

Re: Pre Purchase Question ADI-2 DAC

Oh!!  And when comparing NOS to SD Sharp, etc...make sure you've applied EQ to NOS, else it will always sound "smoother" because the Trebles are rolled off. 

MC posted the EQ requirements some time ago.  Do a Search on the Forum.

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic Edition"
Cables:  Red Ones, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes (2)

17 (edited by ramses 2019-06-02 21:27:23)

Re: Pre Purchase Question ADI-2 DAC

Curt962 wrote:

Oh!!  And when comparing NOS to SD Sharp, etc...make sure you've applied EQ to NOS, else it will always sound "smoother" because the Trebles are rolled off. 

MC posted the EQ requirements some time ago.  Do a Search on the Forum.

I think you refer to these two postings from MC, April 2018:

For 44.1 kHz: https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopi … 26#p130026
For 48.0 kHz: https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopi … 50#p130950

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, Win10 Pro 1909, Cubase, UFX+, Octamic XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS BE/R BE, RayDAT, ARC USB

Re: Pre Purchase Question ADI-2 DAC

Thanks Ramses! 

MC's EQ recommendations are quite Spot-On, and with those, one might find the differences to be negligible, if not in FAVOR of the default SD Sharp...

I prefer a "One Size Fits All" Filter, and the default SD Sharp DAC filter suits me quite well.   I'll let others hear some sort of Magic beyond the Nyquist Freq. 

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic Edition"
Cables:  Red Ones, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes (2)