Topic: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

Hello
Im using ADI-2DAC for about one week
Although the manual is written in clear manner, it supposes some background knowledge from user.
The most difficult topic for me is DA filtering which have the modes like NOS, Sharp etc.
Please advice How can I choose the right Mode for my music environment and How can I test if my choice is correct?
I learnt that the performance of a DA filter can be ajusted by parametric EQ. How I can apply the EQ to DA filters in order to get the Best from my device?

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

By far the best way how to determine the best filter is by your ears. Just choose some, listen to it for a week or two, then switch the filter and so on. Leave the one which will sound you the best.

3 (edited by Curt962 2019-06-13 19:06:09)

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

AV,

Some months ago, MC posted specific EQ parameters for the NOS Filter Option should you wish to use that. 

For 44khz:    B5 14.3khz.  Gain: 3.0  Q: 0.6

Do a search of the Forum.   It's all here.

4 (edited by ramses 2019-06-13 19:53:12)

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

Default DA filter should be fine for you.

If you like NOS, use NOS.
If you want to compensate the 44.1 kHz NOS rolled-off frequency, then adjust with PEQ as MC wrote here:

https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopi … 26#p130026

In short:
Slow B5 G +4.0 F 16.5k Q 2.1 Shelf
NOS B5 G +3.0 F 14.3k Q 0.6 Shelf

Before you tweak with the PEQ I would perform a blind test whether you can hear a difference between i.e. the default SD-Sharp and NOS filter. If not, then tbh .. this all is not so important, simply enjoy music.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, Win7 Prof, Cubase 9.5, UFX+, Octamic XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS BE/DAC, RayDAT, ARC USB

5 (edited by Curt962 2019-06-13 23:38:26)

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

I'm going in support of Ramses/Pitrs comments.   If there was a BEST DA Filter option, I'm certain RME would have excluded other choices.

It's simply a matter of personal preference, and I find myself consistently choosing the default SD Sharp filter.   

Search "Set Ups for new users" here on the forum.    Fun stuff there to help you make legitimate comparisons.

Enjoy your New RME!!

I found it for you:

https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopi … 17#p140417

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

Thanks a lot for comments.
I just looked through the correspondence on the ref  given above by Ramses.
If I understood well in >192khz area only Slow is available and it don't need to be ajusted.
Right?

7 (edited by Curt962 2019-06-13 23:46:20)

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

Yes!

Enjoy your New ADI-2 DAC!   It is indeed a Masterpiece of Engineering!

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

Theoretically, the correct filter is the one that has no attenuation up to half the sampling frequency and infinite attenuation above, ie. a brick wall filter, while also maintaining a constant delay across all frequencies, ie. phase linear. Only this filter will correctly reconstruct a properly band-limited sampled signal, ie. a signal that has no content above half the sample rate. Obviously, this filter would need to be infinitely steep which is practically impossible.

However, if there is out of band content in the sampled signal, ie. the signal is not properly band-limited, the filter has to remove (attenuate in practical terms) that content which results in the ringing eg. as that seen in the single sample impulse responses. The more the filter attenuates the out of band content, the more ringing there will be.
However, even if the signal is not properly band-limited, the frequency of the ringing is half the sample rate which is at least 22.05 kHz and thus of itself is most likely not audible. It may however result in audible intermodulation distortion. Less steep filters on the other hand result in less ringing but regardless of whether there is out of band content contained in the signal result in more imaging/aliasing which of itself may be audible.
The same holds for filters that are not phase linear such as the 'SD' filters. Thus, if the signal is properly band-limited there will be no ringing regardless of the selected filter and if the signal is not properly band-limited but there is no ringing there will be aliasing/imaging.

However, the steeper the filter and the more linear its phase response, the greater overall delay (latency) it introduces. Thus, if a steep filter and low overall delay (latency) is desired, the linearity of the phase response has to be compromised. As RME is (for the most part) a pro audio company, this might be the reason 'SD Sharp' is selected as the default filter.

The most accurate filter is 'Sharp' having the most linear frequency response up to 20 kHz and the highest attenuation of content above the Nyquist frequency, ie. lowest imaging/aliasing, while also being phase linear, ie. the delay is constant for all frequencies. If lower latency is desired, the 'SD Sharp' filter has very similar frequency response and similarly low imaging/aliasing but results in phase distortion which means that the delay is frequency dependant.

The 'Slow' and 'SD Slow' filters have lower latency than their sharp counterparts but this comes at the cost of a high frequency roll-off and less attenuation of content above the Nyquist frequency, ie. more aliasing/imaging.

The 'NOS' filter has the lowest latency of all filters while also being phase linear but has the highest high frequency roll-off and no significant attenuation of content above the Nyquist frequency, ie. a lot aliasing/imaging.

Boosting the high end of the slow and 'NOS' filters gives a more extended high end but still has a lot of aliasing/imaging while ringing is not an issue with properly band-limited content.

As mentioned by ramses and Curt962, if you want to test which filter you prefer, make sure that you have proper controls in place. This requires that you do not know which filter is selected during testing. If you prefer the high frequency roll-off of the slow or NOS filters, this can be implemented with the PEQ while avoiding aliasing.


TLDR: If the content is properly band-limited and latency is not a concern, the best filter is 'Sharp'. If low latency is desired and the content is properly band-limited, the best filter is 'SD Sharp'. If the content is not properly band-limited, determine for yourself whatever compromise of ringing, high frequency extension and aliasing you prefer.

9 (edited by ramses 2019-06-14 05:55:04)

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

And at the end it's much likely that you do not hear any difference between those filters.

I would 1st try to make this little blind test together with somebody who assists you to get a feeling of how subtile those changes are that I personally decided to simply stay with the default filter which is potentially the best compromise of all.

Thanks for your nice explanation jiw.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, Win7 Prof, Cubase 9.5, UFX+, Octamic XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS BE/DAC, RayDAT, ARC USB

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

Thanks a lot jiw, very interesting and quite clear!!
I've try to compare the different filters by ear, it's quite difficult! The only one who sounds a little different to me is NOS.

On mine, I'm on Sharp: in listening to music, latency does not matter, and I prefer a phase linear filter.

ADI-2 DAC - Neumann KH 310 A monitors

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

Thanks a lot Jiw and Ramsey!
It seems to me now I have enough information to make some experiments and reflex on them properly armed with theoretical provisions above

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

Curt962 wrote:

Yes!

Enjoy your New ADI-2 DAC!   It is indeed a Masterpiece of Engineering!

Thank you Curt
The only question left by the moment is about processing an inbound signal samle rate inside the DAC.
In the case I set for instance 768 khz internal sample rate what will happen to the signal coming into the Device from USB input?
Will it be upsampled?
If yes, what start first, upsampling or filtering?

13 (edited by N00b 2019-06-14 11:05:24)

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

avkaufmann wrote:
Curt962 wrote:

Yes!

Enjoy your New ADI-2 DAC!   It is indeed a Masterpiece of Engineering!

Thank you Curt
The only question left by the moment is about processing an inbound signal samle rate inside the DAC.
In the case I set for instance 768 khz internal sample rate what will happen to the signal coming into the Device from USB input?
Will it be upsampled?
If yes, what start first, upsampling or filtering?

You can't set the SR on the ADI-2 DAC. The DAC will automatically switch to the SR of the signal you send into the DAC.
In the manual:

Sample Rate
The sample rate is also automatically determined and set by the unit. With USB the current sample rate of record/playback is set (INT), with SPDIF the sample rate of the SPDIF signal (Optical/SPDIF c).

ADI-2 DAC - Neumann KH 310 A monitors

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

Backing up a few posts, I just wanted to comment to JiW on his Clear, Concise commentary regarding the DAC Filters.   

Thanks JiW.   Good Read!

15 (edited by jiw 2019-06-14 12:09:29)

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

This thread might interest you: https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=28810.

Adding to what N00b has said, if you set the sample rate for the DAC in the OS or software, the OS or the software will upsample/downsample if the sample rate of the files is different from that set for the DAC.

There is really no great gain using upsampling with the ADI-2 DAC since any upsampling has to use a low-pass filter equivalent to that of the DAC at single speed and the DAC's internal filters at 44.1/48 kHz are already good.

You are most likely best-off setting the DAC's sample rate to that of the files and using the DAC's filter at single speed.

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

N00b wrote:
avkaufmann wrote:
Curt962 wrote:

Yes!

Enjoy your New ADI-2 DAC!   It is indeed a Masterpiece of Engineering!

Thank you Curt
The only question left by the moment is about processing an inbound signal samle rate inside the DAC.
In the case I set for instance 768 khz internal sample rate what will happen to the signal coming into the Device from USB input?
Will it be upsampled?
If yes, what start first, upsampling or filtering?

You can't set the SR on the ADI-2 DAC. The DAC will automatically switch to the SR of the signal you send into the DAC.
In the manual:

Sample Rate
The sample rate is also automatically determined and set by the unit. With USB the current sample rate of record/playback is set (INT), with SPDIF the sample rate of the SPDIF signal (Optical/SPDIF c).


Thank you very much
Could you Please  give more detailed explanation Regarding USB input? Im sorry to doubt about But Id understand the quote above as inbound USB signal is recalculated (=set) to
internal sample rate using internal clock. At the same time, it doesnt take place with SPdif

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

It looks like I was answered above)
Thank you Jiw! (post#15).
And I appreciate your advice Regarding the use of computer based oversampling

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

It seems Clock Source is being confused with SR. ?

SR via USB is determined by the Source Material or Server OS just like the other inputs.  Clock Source is now Internal (int)

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

Curt962 wrote:

It seems Clock Source is being confused with SR. ?

SR via USB is determined by the Source Material or Server OS just like the other inputs.  Clock Source is now Internal (int)

Thank you very much
In using USB input, I wronly supposed that internal clocking can not be combined with Source Material SR.
In this case should the internal SR be set  equally to the Source Material SR?

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

No need to set anything.   The ADI-2 Sampling Rate will be that of the incoming source material.   Not more, and not less.

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

Anyway you can't set it: the "Sample Rate" in the "Options" menu is "read only", you can't modify it wink

ADI-2 DAC - Neumann KH 310 A monitors

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

N00b wrote:

Anyway you can't set it: the "Sample Rate" in the "Options" menu is "read only", you can't modify it wink

Thank Heavens.  smile

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

Back to original point of this thread...

Enjoy your new ADI-2 DAC AVK!!   Feel free to try all the Filters!!   You may be surprised to find that the audible differences tend to be quite small.   Switching between one filter and another is hardly the Paradigm shifting event some might profess.    Nonetheless, you may find one that you genuinely prefer. Use that!

Good Listening!

Curt

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

Curt962 wrote:

Back to original point of this thread...

Enjoy your new ADI-2 DAC AVK!!   Feel free to try all the Filters!!   You may be surprised to find that the audible differences tend to be quite small.   Switching between one filter and another is hardly the Paradigm shifting event some might profess.    Nonetheless, you may find one that you genuinely prefer. Use that!

Good Listening!

Curt

Thank you very much Curt
Now Im indeed going to apply all advice Ive got to the  practice of listening

Rgds
Alex (=AvKAUFMANN)

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

Curt962 wrote:

No need to set anything.   The ADI-2 Sampling Rate will be that of the incoming source material.   Not more, and not less.

In fact I failed to find How can the Device sampling rate match those of the Source Material on the manual. I had to choose in the software on Windows 10 the sample rate before playback. This preliminary ajusted sample rate becomes the Device sample rate. As far as I can see it can not be influenced by incoming Source Material during playback no matter what sample rate it have.
In the case the set sample rate on the Device doesnt equal to the incoming sample rate it lead to the need for incoming sample rate conversion or resetting the set sample rate to equlize it to the incoming one
Please advice How can manage this issue?

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

Alex,

There's a current thread running where MC (RME) advises to use Wasapi in Exclusive Mode with Windows.   You'll be fine. smile

Curt

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

Curt962 wrote:

Alex,

There's a current thread running where MC (RME) advises to use Wasapi in Exclusive Mode with Windows.   You'll be fine. smile

Curt

Thank you very much
May I ask you to share this thread to me
Actually I failed to find it myself

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=28801

Warm regards,
Bernhard Rother
enjoy-audio.de

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

Thanks a lot!

30 (edited by avkaufmann 2019-06-17 12:37:25)

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

Curt962 wrote:

Alex,

There's a current thread running where MC (RME) advises to use Wasapi in Exclusive Mode with Windows.   You'll be fine. smile

Curt

In fact, short investigating the matter shows that a lot of things depend on lucky choice of sw player.
Wich would you recommend for a beginer?
The most important feature is ability to play a variety of sources with different sample rates automatically switching the output sample rate for d/a conversion on the DAC
My OS is Windows 10 (assembly 17134.829)

31 (edited by Curt962 2019-06-17 14:32:31)

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

My Streaming Apparatus just "works", thus I've been not been confronted with such issues.  To that end, any Sftwr recommendations from myself would not be based on any First Hand experience.  I'm certain there are others here who'd be happy to share their more qualified recommendations.

In the meantime, look at the existing forum posts related to this matter.   What did they do??   I'd wager that the answer resides here. smile

Good Luck Alex!!

Curt

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

Curt962 wrote:

My Streaming Apparatus just "works", thus I've been not been confronted with such issues.  To that end, any Sftwr recommendations from myself would not be based on any First Hand experience.  I'm certain there are others here who'd be happy to share their more qualified recommendations.

In the meantime, look at the existing forum posts related to this matter.   What did they do??   I'd wager that the answer resides here. smile

Good Luck Alex!!

Curt

Thanks Curt
I do appreciate your advice.
I  look tbrough the corresponding posts with a great attention
On he top of all said above arises another question.
Why is the DAC equipped with an ability to have the internal sample rate fixed through the Windows driver software?
What is it for, multichannell apps,... marketing?

33 (edited by bejoro 2019-06-17 15:39:47)

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

I would recommend JRiver Media Center as an universal player (and server). It costs a few bugs but it is worth every cent. You can use the RME MADIFace ASIO driver with JRiver MC.

Link: https://jriver.com

As far as I know RME uses JRiver MC for testing and MC recommended it.

There is a 30 day test period. You should read the JRiver Wiki a little bit because the JR Media Center is a very powerful and versatile software.

Warm regards,
Bernhard Rother
enjoy-audio.de

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

Let's keep in mind that the the ADI-2 DAC is derived from the Professional Environment where manually setting a SR via Sftwr may be necessary based on the needs of the task.   

Marketing?  Let's not even suggest that, as Marketing Gimmicks have no place in the Pro World where only RESULTS matter.

Curt

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

Curt962 wrote:

Marketing?  Let's not even suggest that, as Marketing Gimmicks have no place in the Pro World where only RESULTS matter.

Curt

Wishful thinking. Marketing is as important for ProAudio as for any other business. There are many, many professionell products with great marketing promises and very weak results. And many users go for it.

But RME is an exception.

Warm regards,
Bernhard Rother
enjoy-audio.de

36 (edited by Curt962 2019-06-17 16:43:51)

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

Ja Bernhard...no one is exempt.  I can agree, but having some background in Broadcasting, ohhhhhhhhh.....

We used a "Board" that surely had been designed in the Infancy of "Wireless"...and getting that Board updated to somewhat Modern Standards was a Monumental Task. smile

Those Paying for the new equipment want Reasons why they're spending, and Silly "features" would not convince them.

Home Users?  Ohhhhh...

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

bejoro wrote:

I would recommend JRiver Media Center as an universal player (and server). It costs a few bugs but it is worth every cent. You can use the RME MADIFace ASIO driver with JRiver MC.

Link: https://jriver.com

As far as I know RME uses JRiver MC for testing and MC recommended it.

There is a 30 day test period. You should read the JRiver Wiki a little bit because the JR Media Center is a very powerful and versatile software.

Thank you very much
Ive already installed a trial version.
The main problem is a big number of adjustments.
I can get it through!
I go to read Help
Rgds

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

Alex,

You can do this!  smile

Get set up, and enjoy some Music.  That's the entire point of this exercise. 

Best Regards, 

Curt

39 (edited by bejoro 2019-06-18 06:47:46)

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

avkaufmann wrote:
bejoro wrote:

I would recommend JRiver Media Center as an universal player (and server). It costs a few bugs but it is worth every cent. You can use the RME MADIFace ASIO driver with JRiver MC.

Link: https://jriver.com

As far as I know RME uses JRiver MC for testing and MC recommended it.

There is a 30 day test period. You should read the JRiver Wiki a little bit because the JR Media Center is a very powerful and versatile software.

Thank you very much
Ive already installed a trial version.
The main problem is a big number of adjustments.
I can get it through!
I go to read Help
Rgds

Yes, the first settings are a little bit difficult, but managable, even for a beginner. JRiver have a very helpful Wiki.

The JRiver MC is very versatile as a high quality audio/video player, media server, DSD/PCM (or PCM/DSD) converter, file format converter, ripping and many more. But primarily as a very good media player with ASIO support. On Windows I am using it for many years mainly for video/BluRay sometimes for audio tests, conversion etc. (but for pure audio playback I use mainly Linux media renderer clients).

Warm regards,
Bernhard Rother
enjoy-audio.de

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

bejoro wrote:
avkaufmann wrote:
bejoro wrote:

I would recommend JRiver Media Center as an universal player (and server). It costs a few bugs but it is worth every cent. You can use the RME MADIFace ASIO driver with JRiver MC.

Link: https://jriver.com

As far as I know RME uses JRiver MC for testing and MC recommended it.

There is a 30 day test period. You should read the JRiver Wiki a little bit because the JR Media Center is a very powerful and versatile software.

Thank you very much
Ive already installed a trial version.
The main problem is a big number of adjustments.
I can get it through!
I go to read Help
Rgds

Yes, the first settings are a little bit difficult, but managable, even for a beginner. JRiver have a very helpful Wiki.

The JRiver MC is very versatile as a high quality audio/video player, media server, DSD/PCM (or PCM/DSD) converter, file format converter, ripping and many more. But primarily as a very good media player with ASIO support. On Windows I am using it for many years mainly for video/BluRay sometimes for audio tests, conversion etc. (but for pure audio playback I use mainly Linux media renderer clients).

Hello Bernhard
I spent Yesterday sometime  investigating the player work together with the DAC.
Actually, every time the sampling frequency was not equal on the player and the DAC it stopped playing with advice to change output parameters. It happened independently to the bit rate (24, 32 bit) which seems to me doesnt influence the result. Also I tried both Wasapi and asio But result was the same.
The only way to adjust I found is setting the conversion of all Source sampling frequencies on the player to those set on the DAC in the output window. Of course I failed to achieve Automatic switching the DAC to the Source sampling frequency.
Could you Please give some directions How to proceed?
Rgds
Alex

41 (edited by bejoro 2019-06-18 07:49:57)

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

Hello Alex,

Do not use WASAPI if RME drivers have been installed.

JRiver MC with ASIO works perfectly. The sample rate will be adjusted automatically. I never had a problem like that.

I am not sure which settings you have changed. It is impossible to help without knowing what you have done, some screenshots of the settings might be helpful.

Maybe you should start again and try it step by step.

Warm regards,
Bernhard Rother
enjoy-audio.de

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

bejoro wrote:

Hello Alex,

Do not use WASAPI if RME drivers have been installed.

JRiver MC with ASIO works perfectly. The sample rate will be adjusted automatically. I never had a problem like that.

I am not sure which settings you have changed. It is impossible to help without knowing what you have done, some screenshots of the settings might be helpful.

Maybe you should start again and try it step by step.

Thanks
Wasapi works only with Windows drivers, doesnt it? In order to use it I have to change rme driver for Windows, havnt I?
How can see (and be sure after all) that switching works autimatically?

43

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

The Dac's display shows the sample rate in the lower right corner...

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

MC wrote:

The Dac's display shows the sample rate in the lower right corner...

Thank you very much
Mattias

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

Alex,

You've gotten very quiet.  Might we assume you've solved your SR matter, and are now immersed in your Music Collection?

I suspect So. smile

Curt

46 (edited by avkaufmann 2019-06-21 14:00:50)

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

Curt962 wrote:

Alex,

You've gotten very quiet.  Might we assume you've solved your SR matter, and are now immersed in your Music Collection?

I suspect So. smile

Curt

Hello Curt,
thanks for you asking
In fact, Im between WDM/WASABI+Class Complient mode and ASIO, with RME driver and the latest firmware installed. To choose WDM/WASABI means to de-install RME driver with inevitable consequent re-installing in the future from time to time . Im not ready yet.
Currently, I exploit Jriver (HQ, Audirvana is worth using??)playback with all to 384 kHz sw conversion adjusted before DAC input. The DAC is set to 384 as well.
The sound is amazing (thanks PEQ armed NOS and Dynaudio 40th univessary), uncovering the stage and demonstating the details I never heard.
Automatic SR matching is waited to be done. Low detailed advices are welcome (what to choose and instruction with principal steps sequence)  ))))

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

Alex!

I suppose that as you're enjoying fine sounds, that alone should be reason enough for Celebration!!   Nice Work!

Trust that your discovery of new things in your Music Collection will continue, and provide you with an ongoing sense of Amazement!    It surely is so at my house!  smile

The SR Question is beyond my ability to resolve, but be confident that an ANSWER will be found.

Keep this Thread alive!    The more qualified inputs we get, the faster we arrive at a Solution.

All the Best to You for Happy Listening!

Curt

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

Hello Alex,

JRiver Media Center supports ASIO perfectly. You should use the ASIO driver if the software supports it.
Only with the RME ASIO driver you can fully use all the capabilities of the ADI-2 PRO/DAC (up to 768kHz SR, DirectDSD etc.). There is no reason to use WASAPI in JRiver MC with RME devices.

Warm regards,
Bernhard Rother
enjoy-audio.de

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

Viele Dank Bernhard!   Good Inputs lead to Solutions.

Re: DA filters on ADI-2DAC

Curt962 wrote:

Alex!

I suppose that as you're enjoying fine sounds, that alone should be reason enough for Celebration!!   Nice Work!

Trust that your discovery of new things in your Music Collection will continue, and provide you with an ongoing sense of Amazement!    It surely is so at my house!  smile

The SR Question is beyond my ability to resolve, but be confident that an ANSWER will be found.

Keep this Thread alive!    The more qualified inputs we get, the faster we arrive at a Solution.

All the Best to You for Happy Listening!

Curt

Thanks a lot. Actually I'm a bit surprised with this answer because I supposed that the solution exists and it is a routine one. It seemed to me that a lot of people enjoys automatic switching of the internal DAC sample rate resulting from the Source sample rate. Well now it looks like it is not simple as it was percepted initially
Thank you once again!