1 Topic by igorzhidkoff (edited by igorzhidkoff 2019-07-08 21:48:33)

  • From: Russia
  • Registered: 2019-07-08
  • Posts: 20

Topic: UFX+ vs ADI-2 Pro outputs comparison

Hello everyone!
Could anyone please help me to make decision for our project, which gear will be better suits our needs.
We already have one Fireface UFX+ unit, with mostly busy analog IO, in nearest future we will need 2 additional headphone outputs and 3 additional mic inputs. Limitation for this needs is 1U 19 rack slot, because it is for our sometimes-portable setup, now it is 3U with 1U free, and we think making it 4U is overkill and lack of mobility for our needs.
After some debates we trying to chose, where to go:

1. Another UFX+/UFXII unit with adat/madi connectivity with primary UFX+ unit
Pros:

  • good amount of additional reserved IO for possible future purposes

  • good quality of preamps and headphone outputs, which we think, suite our needs(we doesn't heard any better for now)

  • balanced headphone output scheme of ADI-2 Pro can be easily emulated with TotalmixFX

Cons:

  • the same grade device, which we already have, so no improvements in quality, only in quantity.

2. ADI-2 Pro with some 9.5" preamps like QuadMicII, for adat+aes connectivity with primary UFX+ unit
Pros:

  • possible improvements in headphones and main output quality

  • same grade mic preamps quality

  • suits our needs in connectivity

Cons:

  • there is no additional reserved IO for possible future needs

  • not so convenient in maintaining and configuration

3. Octamic XTC for madi connectivity with primary UFX+ unit
Pros:

  • most convenient combination with UFX+ (aux device feature)

  • better? quality mic preamps

  • good amount(5) of reserved mic preamps/analog IO for possible future needs

Cons:

  • 30 Ohm headphone outputs poorly compatible with low impedance headphones, and we need it compatibility


All 3 choices costs nearly the same, Octamic XTC incompatible with low impedance headphones(IEMs etc), and now we chose between 1 and 2, so final decision depends on one point in our minds - are Adi-2 Pro outputs noticeably better than UFX+/UFXII and in which cases we can really benefit from this difference? Unfortunately it is hard to do side-by-side comparison in our region, so if someone on this forum has experience with both UFX+/UFXII and Adi-2 Pro, I will be grateful if you will share your opinion on this topic. Our main monitors are Adam A77x and our best headphones are Beyerdynamic dt1990pro and Sennheiser HD650 at this moment, and we have no plans to buy something considerably better(if it matters).

2 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2019-07-09 07:18:44)

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Online
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 12,044

Re: UFX+ vs ADI-2 Pro outputs comparison

to 1) I think 2 normal TRS plugs for stereo do not give you balanced operation, as the circuit to generate the difference between + and - is not present. I am not 100% sure, ask RME for confirmation. The quality of the analog circuits of UFX+/UFXII have been improved and the UFX+/UFXII are the latest designs from RME. So I think these circuits are at least on par if not slightly better compared to the XTC in terms of technical data. Whether this is really audible you would need to perform a side by side comparison. You need also to look whether your computer is able to drive 2 UFX+ on 2 USB3 ports which is a lot of channels. If you do not need MADI on the 2nd unit you could try to connect it via USB, then it works like a 30 channel device (UFXII). But I think the €400 more are worth it, because it gives you a 2nd MADI bus and thus more flexibiltiy. Besides that a 2nd UFX+ could act as backup shall the primary device have an issue.

to 2) QuadMicII doesnt have AES or ADAT, you get 4 Mic inputs and have line level outputs. If I understand you right then your UFX+ analog inputs are already heavy in use. And even if you get an ADI-2 Pro FS, it has only 2 analog inputs, so you can only connect 2 of the 4 Mic inputs. Another thing is, that the ADI-2 Pro FS can be connected via ADAT or AES but in fact transports only 2 digital channels through ADAT. Keep in mind that AES and ADAT2 are internally connected, so if you use AES then you have not an independend ADAT2 channel but then I think you could use it for clocking if you do not want to use Word Clock.

to 3) MADI and AUX device give you good features. You can have up to 2km between UFX+ and XTC. You get additional 4 AES IN/OUTPUTS which is quite nice. You can use the XTC also as line inputs and 4 of the inputs have PAD and 4 can be used as instr inputs. 2 phones outputs, this is a very flexible unit. The question is whether IEM connectivity is a must.
The ADI-2 Pro FS has not IEM output only the ADI-2 DAC, are you mixing the devices ?

Rack: I would use 1 RU more than you have devices, because devices like UFX+, XTC and ADI-2 Pro become warm. So its good that you have a little airflow between them. For 2 UFX+ I would use a 3 RU rack. If you have to place additional stuff into it, then better use 4 RU and leave a little space.

As nice as an ADI-2 Pro FS is sound wise .. I think for a band its important to have some flexibility reserves. An ADI-2 Pro FS directly binds many money resources but doesnt give to you the desired 3 more Mic channels and also not IEM. The ADI-2 DAC has an IEM output but the DAC version has no analog inputs and if I remember right you can only use either phones or IEM. Not sure whether IEM phones can be connected to the normal ADI-2 Pro FS model, this you need to ask RME.
I personally would add an ADI-2 Pro FS to the setup once all other requirements for I/O ports are fully met.
This can be done at a later time.

Its a difficult decision and it depends how your PC or Laptop is able to digest 2 UFX+ ..
You didn't tell anything about your PC hardware. You can only try, should be possible.

If your PC can make use of two UFX+ (either both on USB3 or a mix of USB3/2) then I think I would go for a second UFX+, because it gives you more options compared to XTC / ADI-2 Pro FS:
- phones outputs a little more modern, little more power, lower impedance 2 vs 30
- it gives you 4 phantastic preamps and 8 more analog I/O at the same time
- inputs can be switched between 2 and outputs between 3 reference levels
- the UFX+ gives you also more analog inputs AND outputs, the XTC only has 2 phones outputs, which can be used as analog outputs not only for phones, but its probably better to have 8 outputs which can be used for balanced operation
- it can act as a backup for the 1st, if one breaks you can eventually provide an alternative "stripped down" setup and still operate
- for the 2nd device you need a 2nd DUREC recording medium if you are using DUREC

2 Q remaining to RME
1) can balanced phone operation be emulated with an UFX+ ? I think not.
2) can IEM phones be used on an ADI-2 Pro FS ? Or does it require smth like an IEM output on the ADI-2 DAC ?

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

3 Reply by MC

  • MC
  • MC
  • Administrator
  • Offline
  • From: Germany/Thailand
  • Registered: 2007-04-06
  • Posts: 24,824

Re: UFX+ vs ADI-2 Pro outputs comparison

1. Yes it can, and we had this topic before where I explained it. Simply reroute and phase invert the channels accordingly.

2. Sure one can use IEMs with the Pro.

3. I would definitely buy another UFX+, for reasons missing in the first post. a) fully fledged unit that can be used when first unit breaks. b) can be used for two applications at different locations. c) can even be used via MADI as frontend on stage. d) can be remoted with TM FX for iPad, or TM FX Remote. e) Phones outputs are more than qualified to drive the mentioned headphones.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

  • From: Russia
  • Registered: 2019-07-08
  • Posts: 20

Re: UFX+ vs ADI-2 Pro outputs comparison

Thank you for quick answers!

I think 2 normal TRS plugs for stereo do not give you balanced operation, as the circuit to generate the difference between + and - is not present.

I simply read the manual for Adi-2 Pro, found there scheme of unique RME balanced solution at chapter 34.3 and replicate it with TotalmixFX routing. Works very well with cabling as described at chapter 33.7 of Adi-2 Pro manual. Often use this mode with Sennheisers and recabled Audio-Technica's without troubles. Of course with UFX+ there are few differences: one 4-channel DAC chip instead of combination of two stereo DACs in Adi-2 Pro and lack of some protection circuitry, but improvements of balanced mode over classical are very similar to claimed for Adi-2 Pro, maybe not so impressive(can't compare) because of hardware differences, but still useful. Screenshots of our TotalmixFX routing example of implementing balanced headphones for software output AN1/2:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zqd06kfzh6z8k … d.png?dl=0

Besides that a 2nd UFX+ could act as backup shall the primary device have an issue.

Very strong point, thank you for it! We didn't think this way before you mention it, and it makes sense!

Another thing is, that the ADI-2 Pro FS can be connected via ADAT or AES but in fact transports only 2 digital channels through ADAT. Keep in mind that AES and ADAT2 are internally connected, so if you use AES then you have not an independend ADAT2 channel but then I think you could use it for clocking if you do not want to use Word Clock.

Good info, after reading the manual, my conclusion was it can route AES to phones1/2, and at the same time ADAT to phones3/4, but if it can't, it is much easier to choose now.

The question is whether IEM connectivity is a must.

Yes, it it must have for us, and XTC is bad for IEMs, because of high 30 Ohm output impedance, but Adi-2 Pro is very nice for IEMs, because it has 0.1 Ohm output impedance, so it is absolutely compatible with low-impedance headphones. Common rule is output impedance must be less or equal to 1/8 of headphones impedance.

You didn't tell anything about your PC hardware. You can only try, should be possible.

Our portable computer and studio machine both are macs with thunderbolt, we didn't experienced any issues with our current UFX+, I hope second UFX+ will not cause troubles, manual says driver designed for work with several devices in separate TotalmixFX instances.

I think I would go for a second UFX+, because it gives you more options compared to XTC / ADI-2 Pro FS

Yes, after clarifying some points at this thread, we'll buy second UFX+ unit, thank you!

I would definitely buy another UFX+, for reasons missing in the first post. a) fully fledged unit that can be used when first unit breaks. b) can be used for two applications at different locations. c) can even be used via MADI as frontend on stage. d) can be remoted with TM FX for iPad, or TM FX Remote. e) Phones outputs are more than qualified to drive the mentioned headphones.

Very good points, especially having hot-spare unit for some unexpected situations, and maybe second complete unit with MADI will expand our possibilities in future. Thank you!

5 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2019-07-09 17:22:34)

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Online
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 12,044

Re: UFX+ vs ADI-2 Pro outputs comparison

BTW .. nice to learn some new tricks, thanks to you both for you info regarding balanced operation.

Another thing, which you asked about the ADI-2 Pro FS.
Yes you can route AES to 1/2 and via ADAT/SPDIF to 3/4, this is possible.
Or you switch manually on the front by using remap key feature, see my blog article: https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … our-Setup/

And yes good idea from MC, two UFX+ can be connected via MADI for various use cases.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13