Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

Pitrs wrote:
willem wrote:

The ADI-2 DAC is perfectly neutral, with distrotion and noise well below the limits of human hearing acuity.

As every electrical audio component, also ADI-2 DAC has its sonic trace. Perfectly neutral would mean that what is on the input matches 100% to the output. Which is not the case on any DAC. Sure, this is RME fans forum but still it is good to stand with the feet on the ground.

I have ADI-2 Pro AE in my system and couple months ago I bought ADI-2 DAC since I did like the remote. Also I did assume it might sound very similar and it seemed as a good idea to switch these two since I am not using the extra functionality of the Pro version compared to DAC. After some 2 months of listening to both of them on a different kinds of music, in my different mood tempers, focused listening and background listening, I found clear sonic differences between the two which I was able to recognize without knowing which of them is currently in operation. In my system and room acoustics the Pro version better suits even if I did strongly prefer the DAC personally (has the remote and would save me some money to buy records :-) ).

This is surprising, since as far as I know they are designed to sound the same and have the same specs. That they are so different you even prefer one over the other against what is practical for you is a big ???????
Maybe being a hifi enthusiast has trained you to very high auditory levels (no sarcasm). As a musician/producer but causal music listener, I struggle to hear differences between dacs, mic preamps, amps eqs etc. Maybe cause they are tools to me to create a sonic signature anyway. I have complete creative freedom, to alter the sound of anything I work with. Which are much bigger strokes (changes) then any dac or preamp will give. When I go to much into the absolute sound quality universe, that feels more neurotic then creative to me.
I post this not to be critical but to join the different forces (users) on this forum. Technicians, musicians, producers and listeners and the great guys of RME.
Love and peace,
Vincent

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
HDSP9652+ADI-8AE  2X HDSP9632
Cubase pro10

52 (edited by Pitrs 2019-07-25 08:38:03)

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

vinark wrote:

This is surprising, since as far as I know they are designed to sound the same and have the same specs.

Vincent, they do not have the same specs nor measurements. The Pro version measures a bit worse.

You write you can not hear the differences between amps - if you have the possibility, try to compare for example Primare i25 and Parasound HINT 6. Both are decent integrated amps but with very different approach to the sound. You should hear it very clearly. If not, good for you (I mean it with no sarcasm too) and you have one big problem solved :-).

53 (edited by willem 2019-07-25 09:00:20)

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

Two things matter here:
1 the methodology that was used in the listening tests. This has to be level matched and double blind, and statistically significant. If not, the results do not mean a thing.
2 yes there are measured differences between for example DACs, but if they are often below the level of human hearing acuity, and in the case of DACs usually by a wide margin. They are not audible, and hence do not attract from perfection. Unless you claim to have superhuman hearing acuity.

As for the difference between the Pro and the DAC only: the pro version linked to was not the same generation as the ADI-2 DAC. There is now a new Pro version.

Years ago Peter Walker (Quad) gave me a private blind listening test to compare his three amplifier designs. I thought I could distinguish them, but he grinned and observed that I had not been better than random. That was a lesson learned.

Finally, I could not agree more about the importance of the room. It is the elephant in the room, hence my appreciation for room measurement and dsp room eq. In comparison, worrying about electronics is a waste of time (and money).

RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Quad 606-2 power amp, Quad 2805 speakers, B&W PV1d sub with Antimode 8033 Cinema

54 (edited by Pitrs 2019-07-25 09:21:45)

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

willem:
Yes, theory says what you wrote. Still grey is the theory and green is the tree of life :-).

I have done enough double blind ABX tests in my couple of decades long audio journey to know well their strong disadvantages. It has been reported, tested, proved that this methodology significantly lower the ability to distinguish the two components.

I will give you an example from another world. I used to be a MTB downhill racer. You go downhill on a bike through rough terrain, roots, rocks, drops, big jumps and the best time matters. If I would focus on every single obstacle and try to get over it the most time-efficient way, if I would think how to go over it the best way, I would be insanely slow. The opposite is the right way - to be strongly inside your mind but fairly relaxed not to detail focus on every aspect of the ride and just go.
And with listening it is the same. If I really focus on particular aspects of a music while it is being swithed between A, B and X, I lose it all very fast.

How I do my listening comparisons I did describe above. I listen to the gear couple of weeks, switch randomly with knowing which of the components is on. After that period, if I can hear any differences (which not always is the case), I am able to recognize one unit from another after their switch without knowing which is on. This I have proved in many cases.

I am far from being interested in fooling myself. Why would I go that? Music (and gear) is just a hobby, moreover just one of my hobbies. If I did it (in case of ADI-2 Pro vs DAC in my case), I would "hear" DAC sounding better because I did like it more and I wanted to switch it with the Pro. But it was not the case.

Just please do not apply the logic "if your way does not match to my assumptions and opinions then you are a superhuman". It is weel outside the boundaries of a relevant discussion.

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

Pitrs wrote:

[...] I am not using the extra functionality of the Pro version compared to DAC. After some 2 months of listening to both of them on a different kinds of music, in my different mood tempers, focused listening and background listening, I found clear sonic differences between the two which I was able to recognize without knowing which of them is currently in operation. In my system and room acoustics the Pro version better suits even if I did strongly prefer the DAC personally (has the remote and would save me some money to buy records :-) ).

Yes yes, of course... Psychoacoustics it is.
I would be thrilled to have the result of a double blind testing. If you can really tell the difference in double blind testing between the Pro FS and the DAC, you have super power dude. wink

ADI-2 DAC - Neumann KH 310 A monitors

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

And if so, a golden ear like you, who can tell the difference between 2 pro DACS by ear, I think it will be easy to make a perfect score on this simple and fast test (lossless vs lossy MP3 wink :
https://www.npr.org/sections/therecord/ … io-quality

It takes 5 minutes...

ADI-2 DAC - Neumann KH 310 A monitors

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

As I said before, audio engineering is science, so the rules of scientific validation apply.

RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Quad 606-2 power amp, Quad 2805 speakers, B&W PV1d sub with Antimode 8033 Cinema

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

Pitrs wrote:
vinark wrote:

This is surprising, since as far as I know they are designed to sound the same and have the same specs.

Vincent, they do not have the same specs nor measurements. The Pro version measures a bit worse.
[...]

The Pro measures a bit "worse" than the DAC, but the Pro FS measures the same than the DAC (it is FS too) wink

ADI-2 DAC - Neumann KH 310 A monitors

59 (edited by Pitrs 2019-07-25 09:46:16)

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

N00b wrote:

And if so, a golden ear like you, who can tell the difference between 2 pro DACS by ear, I think it will be easy to make a perfect score on this simple and fast test (lossless vs lossy MP3 wink :
https://www.npr.org/sections/therecord/ … io-quality

It takes 5 minutes...

I went through it seamlessly, what is the deal?

https://www.hifiroom.cz/post204340.html#p204340

(As I am explaining in that post, I do not have computer in my audio setup. So I did this easy test on an ordinary PC with built-in soundcard on mainboard and a cheap in-ears. Full translation here.)

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

N00b wrote:

Psychoacoustics it is.

Before you contribute with such a nonsense next time, please read carefully before. It can hardly be psychoacoustics if I did not know which of the DACs was on.....

Btw, this always surprises me that some people can not resist to start being personal once someone presents different experience than they have. Children act like this, not adults...

61 (edited by N00b 2019-07-25 09:57:42)

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

Pitrs wrote:
N00b wrote:

And if so, a golden ear like you, who can tell the difference between 2 pro DACS by ear, I think it will be easy to make a perfect score on this simple and fast test (lossless vs lossy MP3 wink :
https://www.npr.org/sections/therecord/ … io-quality

It takes 5 minutes...

I went through it seamlessly, what is the deal?

https://www.hifiroom.cz/post204340.html#p204340

(As I am explaining in that post, I do not have computer in my audio setup. So I did this easy test on an ordinary PC with built-in soundcard on mainboard and a cheap in-ears. Full translation here.)

If it's first try and if you can really reproduce this result each time, maybe I have cotton ears... I will try with headphones, but with my speakers I don’t score 6 out of 6 each time, far from that....

Pitrs wrote:
N00b wrote:

Psychoacoustics it is.

Before you contribute with such a nonsense next time, please read carefully before. It can hardly be psychoacoustics if I did not know which of the DACs was on.....

Btw, this always surprises me that some people can not resist to start being personal once someone presents different experience than they have. Children act like this, not adults...

I post about psychoacoustics, you post about nonsense and call me a child... Who is being personnal? wink

ADI-2 DAC - Neumann KH 310 A monitors

62 (edited by Pitrs 2019-07-25 10:13:31)

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

N00b wrote:

If it's first try and if you can really reproduce this result each time, maybe I have cotton ears... I will try with headphone, but with my speakers I don’t score 6 put of 6 each Time, far from that....

This was the second try. With the first one I had 1 mistake with the poorly recorded Coldplay sample.
BTW if you would go back that czech thread, you would see more result with no or one mistake. It is not difficult test, the differences are quite big.

Going back to the difference between ADI-2 DAC and Pro, they are slightly smaller and of a different nature than the difference between CD and a proper mp3 320kbps but still clearly audible.

N00b wrote:

I post about psychoacoustics, you post about nonsense and call me a children... Who is being personnal? wink

Again: please read more carefuly. I did not call you a child (not children assuming you are just one person). There is no post like it from me. I wrote that degrading other's experience by being personal just because you have a different one is childish behavior. Feel the difference?

And other thing once again: how it could be psychoacoustics in the case I did not know which of the DACs is on? Please answer.
By easily throwing it to psychoacoustics you simply ignore facts. And yes, it is childish. The same way as being personal to someone who has different experience (and apparently far better ability to listen to the music).

I think that none of us is interested in such a conversation. I fully admit what you write about your experiences, you should do the same without trying to degrade the others by presenting your thought about their experience by ignoring simple facts.

63 (edited by Pitrs 2019-07-25 10:33:38)

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

willem wrote:

As I said before, audio engineering is science, so the rules of scientific validation apply.

Fully agree that a scientific validation apply for validating audio engineering. But I am not engineering audio, I am listening to the music. That is a way different discipline requiring way different approach.

Try that simple NPR test of 44.1/16 vs mp3 N00b posted and you will rapidly see that ;-).

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

You are evaluating engineering quality with a listening test. For the results to be valid you have to follow proper scientific protocol, and you do not show that you did. Therefore, your conclusions would never be accepted in a proper scientific journal. They are quack science, and that is all there is to it. That ends the discussion for me, and all the more so given your unacademic manners.

RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Quad 606-2 power amp, Quad 2805 speakers, B&W PV1d sub with Antimode 8033 Cinema

65 (edited by Pitrs 2019-07-25 12:05:15)

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

willem wrote:

You are evaluating engineering quality with a listening test.

It is a wrong assumption. I am not evaluating an engineering quality. Never wrote a single world about engineering quality. I can not do it since I am not an electrician.


willem wrote:

For the results to be valid you have to follow proper scientific protocol, and you do not show that you did. Therefore, your conclusions would never be accepted in a proper scientific journal.

I am very fine with this. I have no clue why you wrote this and what is the context with my texts. I had no intention to present "a proper scientific protocol to proper scientific journal" big_smile and if any scientific journal would refuse what I write to the audio discussion forum then ok, let it be smile. Music is just my hobby, my God why only should I... smile?

While I listen, the last thing I am interested in is following any "scientific protocol".

I am absolutely fine with the result I have (=being able to recognize the two DACs without knowing which one is playing and be able to do it repeatedly) because exactly this was the question I wanted to answer to myself. I only care for the result which is clear here.

Have no idea why any "science" should be involved. It is just about listening, nothing more smile. No need for making wannabe "science" from every fart wink.

66 (edited by maartenl 2019-07-25 14:16:28)

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

Pitrs wrote:
willem wrote:

Well, you can have your own opinions, but you cannot have your own facts.

...Not always the combination of technically "best" components results also in the "best" (=more accurate) sound. Mainly because of the listening room acoustics but also because of a personal taste, because of the fact that the sound can become too dry, analytical, lacks life and natural timbre of a piano, brass, bass etc.
Let anyone takes his fine tuned system to another room and it will sound significantly different and most probably not to the taste.

There is no ideal component and there is no ideal system.

What a bullshit you talk, you are such a snob...

What you actually suggest that distortions in the chain cancel each other out to achieve a more accurate sound (measurable) than should be expected based on the weakest part (less accurate component) in the chain. Accuracy is perfectly measurable and not a subjective issue or perception. Please stop bragging these nonsense.

I have absolutely no problem that you trust your ears and perception and that your choice for equipment is based on it. But stop mixing your perception with science.

67 (edited by N00b 2019-07-25 14:30:20)

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

maartenl wrote:
Pitrs wrote:
willem wrote:

Well, you can have your own opinions, but you cannot have your own facts.

...Not always the combination of technically "best" components results also in the "best" (=more accurate) sound. Mainly because of the listening room acoustics but also because of a personal taste, because of the fact that the sound can become too dry, analytical, lacks life and natural timbre of a piano, brass, bass etc.
Let anyone takes his fine tuned system to another room and it will sound significantly different and most probably not to the taste.

There is no ideal component and there is no ideal system.

What a bullshit you talk, you are such a snob...

What you actually suggest that distortions in the chain cancel each other out to achieve a more accurate sound (measurable) than should be expected based on the weakest part (less accurate component) in the chain. Accuracy is perfectly measurable and not a subjective issue or perception. Please stop bragging these nonsense.

I have absolutely no problem that you trust your ears and perception and that your choice for equipment is based on it. But stop mixing your perception with science.

True golden ears make room corrections with the flaws of their electronics!!

ADI-2 DAC - Neumann KH 310 A monitors

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

maartenl wrote:
Pitrs wrote:
willem wrote:

Well, you can have your own opinions, but you cannot have your own facts.

...Not always the combination of technically "best" components results also in the "best" (=more accurate) sound. Mainly because of the listening room acoustics but also because of a personal taste, because of the fact that the sound can become too dry, analytical, lacks life and natural timbre of a piano, brass, bass etc.
Let anyone takes his fine tuned system to another room and it will sound significantly different and most probably not to the taste.

There is no ideal component and there is no ideal system.

What a bullshit you talk, you are such a snob...

What you actually suggest that distortions in the chain cancel each other out to achieve a more accurate sound (measurable) than should be expected based on the weakest part (less accurate component) in the chain. Accuracy is perfectly measurable and not a subjective issue or perception. Please stop bragging these nonsense.

I have absolutely no problem that you trust your ears and perception and that your choice for equipment is based on it. But stop mixing your perception with science.


This is quite common that people of certain mindset are hiding their inability to use argument with personal offenses. So I am leaving it aside.

I never wrote anything about "distortion cancellation". Nor specifically neither in any meaning of my texts. You just made it in the need of creating an argument.

Moreover, the total distortion of the system in not determined by the weakest part of the chain, what might be understood from your opinion, but by the sum of distortions of all the components.

69 (edited by maartenl 2019-07-25 14:52:58)

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

N00b wrote:

True golden ears make room corrections with the flaws of their electronics!!

Haha, not only golden ears. The brain of everyone that is able to hear makes corrections very well, it's called pyscho-accoustics.

This phenomenon is hugely exploited (read: abused) by companies that sell expensive exotic "high-end" products like for example too expensive interconnects that need break-in... Since these cables do not offer any measurable and audible benefit, there's a high risk the buyers will (severely) suffer from cognitive dissonance. Suggesting a substantial "break-in" period (often 150 hrs or 250 hrs) does the trick. During the so-called break-in period the brain will get more used to the sound (which in fact is the exactly the same with a affordable plain quality cable) and so the listener is telling himself he is hearing a difference.

I would like to challenge Pitrs to do a controlled double blind test. If he succeeds to tell the difference between ADI-2 DAC and ADI-2 Pro, I'll pay for the difference in price.

70 (edited by maartenl 2019-07-25 14:56:18)

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

Pitrs wrote:

Moreover, the total distortion of the system in not determined by the weakest part of the chain, what might be understood from your opinion, but by the sum of distortions of all the components.

Agree, and that's why you were talking nonsense while suggesting

Pitrs wrote:

...Not always the combination of technically "best" components results also in the "best" (=more accurate) sound.

Indicating combining less components can result in more accurate sound...

I rest my case.

...Still waiting on your factual proof that attenuators clearly degrade sound..., would remind you that this is a technical forum (as you did)... But you remain so quiet...

71 (edited by Pitrs 2019-07-25 15:04:55)

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

maartenl wrote:
N00b wrote:

True golden ears make room corrections with the flaws of their electronics!!

Haha, not only golden ears. The brain of everyone that is able to hear makes corrections very well, it's called pyscho-accoustics.

This phenomenon is hugely exploited (read: abused) by companies that sell expensive exotic "high-end" products like for example too expensive interconnects that need break-in... Since these cables do not offer any measurable and audible benefit, there's a high risk the buyers will (severely) suffer from cognitive dissonance. Suggesting a substantial "break-in" period (often 150 hrs or 250 hrs) does the trick. During the so-called break-in period the brain will get more used to the sound (which in fact is the exactly the same with a affordable plain quality cable) and so the listener is telling himself he is hearing a difference.

I would like to challenge Pitrs to do a controlled double blind test. If he succeeds to tell the difference between ADI-2 DAC and ADI-2 Pro, I'll pay for the difference in price.


This also is very common and stupid. Where is nothing to argue, cables bullshiting helps.... Congrats, you fit perfectly.

Regarding Pro vs DAC I wrote everything important. I do not force enyone to anything, I just share my relevant experience.

On the other hand, I can pretty easily imagine that such an experience can sound strange to the forum members who do not even hear the difference between CD and mp3 320 on a 3500 Eur active spekers even though it is clearly and easily audible on 80 Eur earplugs powered by PC motherboard big_smile .

72 (edited by N00b 2019-07-25 15:24:53)

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

Pitrs wrote:
maartenl wrote:
N00b wrote:

True golden ears make room corrections with the flaws of their electronics!!

Haha, not only golden ears. The brain of everyone that is able to hear makes corrections very well, it's called pyscho-accoustics.

This phenomenon is hugely exploited (read: abused) by companies that sell expensive exotic "high-end" products like for example too expensive interconnects that need break-in... Since these cables do not offer any measurable and audible benefit, there's a high risk the buyers will (severely) suffer from cognitive dissonance. Suggesting a substantial "break-in" period (often 150 hrs or 250 hrs) does the trick. During the so-called break-in period the brain will get more used to the sound (which in fact is the exactly the same with a affordable plain quality cable) and so the listener is telling himself he is hearing a difference.

I would like to challenge Pitrs to do a controlled double blind test. If he succeeds to tell the difference between ADI-2 DAC and ADI-2 Pro, I'll pay for the difference in price.


This also is very common and stupid. Where is nothing to argue, cables bullshiting helps.... Congrats, you fit perfectly.

Regarding Pro vs DAC I wrote everything important. I do not force enyone to anything, I just share my relevant experience.

On the other hand, I can pretty easily imagine that such an experience can sound strange to the forum members who do not even hear the difference between CD and mp3 320 on a 3500 Eur active spekers even though it is clearly and easily audible on 80 Eur earplugs powered by PC motherboard big_smile .

I can easily make a screenshot with 6 out of 6 score... That doesn't prove anything!
And a lot of people made the test at my home (about 10, most of them are musicians), and no 6 out of 6 til now... You are a true and rare golden ear (or a lier wink ).

And I confess that for me 320 vs lossless is very difficult to recognize by my ear on this test... Except with the piano track.

And I'm not representative of this forum population: not professionnal, I just like music (more than gears BTW).

ADI-2 DAC - Neumann KH 310 A monitors

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

maartenl wrote:

...Still waiting on your factual proof that attenuators clearly degrade sound..., would remind you that this is a technical forum (as you did)... But you remain so quiet...

Give me one relevant reason why I should create any "factual proofs" to you. I am not forcing you to agree. There are many ways how you can disagree - personal offenses you use are amongst them but they only report about yourself.

Through the long years in audio hobby I learned to implement only these changes in the system which have no negative or have positive impact to the sound. The only relevant proof for me is if I hear the positive difference without knowing what component is ON or not. That is enough for me. If it is not enough for you, that is with no offense none of my interest.

74 (edited by maartenl 2019-07-25 15:25:16)

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

Pitrs wrote:
maartenl wrote:

...Still waiting on your factual proof that attenuators clearly degrade sound..., would remind you that this is a technical forum (as you did)... But you remain so quiet...

Give me one relevant reason why I should create any "factual proofs" to you. I am not forcing you to agree. There are many ways how you can disagree - personal offenses you use are amongst them but they only report about yourself.

Through the long years in audio hobby I learned to implement only these changes in the system which have no negative or have positive impact to the sound. The only relevant proof for me is if I hear the positive difference without knowing what component is ON or not. That is enough for me. If it is not enough for you, that is with no offense none of my interest.

One relevant reason: you used "purely factual" as argument but did not gave any facts that underlined your bold assertions so it would be rewarding if you adhere to your own standards.

Question remains: do you take the challenge ?!

But glad I discovered God exists, i.e. a true audio God with platinum ears. You're a very talented and lucky man.

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

N00b wrote:
Pitrs wrote:
maartenl wrote:

Haha, not only golden ears. The brain of everyone that is able to hear makes corrections very well, it's called pyscho-accoustics.

This phenomenon is hugely exploited (read: abused) by companies that sell expensive exotic "high-end" products like for example too expensive interconnects that need break-in... Since these cables do not offer any measurable and audible benefit, there's a high risk the buyers will (severely) suffer from cognitive dissonance. Suggesting a substantial "break-in" period (often 150 hrs or 250 hrs) does the trick. During the so-called break-in period the brain will get more used to the sound (which in fact is the exactly the same with a affordable plain quality cable) and so the listener is telling himself he is hearing a difference.

I would like to challenge Pitrs to do a controlled double blind test. If he succeeds to tell the difference between ADI-2 DAC and ADI-2 Pro, I'll pay for the difference in price.


This also is very common and stupid. Where is nothing to argue, cables bullshiting helps.... Congrats, you fit perfectly.

Regarding Pro vs DAC I wrote everything important. I do not force enyone to anything, I just share my relevant experience.

On the other hand, I can pretty easily imagine that such an experience can sound strange to the forum members who do not even hear the difference between CD and mp3 320 on a 3500 Eur active spekers even though it is clearly and easily audible on 80 Eur earplugs powered by PC motherboard big_smile .

I can easily make a screenshot with 6 out of 6 score... That doesn't prove anything!
And a lot of people made the test at my home (about 10, most of them are musicians), and no 6 out of 6 til now... You are a true and rare golden (or a lier wink ).

And I confess that for me 320 vs lossless is very difficult to recognize by my ear on this test... Except with the piano track.

And I'm not representative of this forum population: not professionnal, I just like music (more than gears BTW).


big_smile big_smile big_smile

Ok I am a lier if you wish so smile. Same as others on the forum I linked who made 0 to 1 mistakes big_smile. As I mentioned before the attitude "I am not capable, so noone is capable", it only speaks of your mentality. Frustration is a beast.

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

maartenl wrote:
Pitrs wrote:
maartenl wrote:

...Still waiting on your factual proof that attenuators clearly degrade sound..., would remind you that this is a technical forum (as you did)... But you remain so quiet...

Give me one relevant reason why I should create any "factual proofs" to you. I am not forcing you to agree. There are many ways how you can disagree - personal offenses you use are amongst them but they only report about yourself.

Through the long years in audio hobby I learned to implement only these changes in the system which have no negative or have positive impact to the sound. The only relevant proof for me is if I hear the positive difference without knowing what component is ON or not. That is enough for me. If it is not enough for you, that is with no offense none of my interest.

One relevant reason: you used "purely factual" as argument but did not gave any facts that underlined your bold assertions so it would be rewarding if you adhere to your own standards.

Question remains: do you take the challenge ?!

It is just your wish. Not a relevant reason. I know what and why I do and have no need to push others to accept that or not. It is up to you. Not my business.

If you need to proof something to someone, feel free. I do not need it. Especially not to someone who is firstly that offensive and then begs for favours. Mind your behaviour.

77 (edited by N00b 2019-07-25 15:35:33)

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

Pitrs wrote:
N00b wrote:
Pitrs wrote:

This also is very common and stupid. Where is nothing to argue, cables bullshiting helps.... Congrats, you fit perfectly.

Regarding Pro vs DAC I wrote everything important. I do not force enyone to anything, I just share my relevant experience.

On the other hand, I can pretty easily imagine that such an experience can sound strange to the forum members who do not even hear the difference between CD and mp3 320 on a 3500 Eur active spekers even though it is clearly and easily audible on 80 Eur earplugs powered by PC motherboard big_smile .

I can easily make a screenshot with 6 out of 6 score... That doesn't prove anything!
And a lot of people made the test at my home (about 10, most of them are musicians), and no 6 out of 6 til now... You are a true and rare golden (or a lier wink ).

And I confess that for me 320 vs lossless is very difficult to recognize by my ear on this test... Except with the piano track.

And I'm not representative of this forum population: not professionnal, I just like music (more than gears BTW).


big_smile big_smile big_smile

Ok I am a lier if you wish so smile. Same as others on the forum I linked who made 0 to 1 mistakes big_smile. As I mentioned before the attitude "I am not capable, so noone is capable", it only speaks of your mentality. Frustration is a beast.

I would be really curious and impressed to see by my eyes somebody who can really recognize the 3 samples each time.

I'm really carefull with internet, with people who claim to recognize by ear 2 power cables or 2 high end dac etc.

And I have no pretention in sound knowledge or golden ears: I'm a n00b wink And no frustration here. Stop your ticky-tacky psychology.

ADI-2 DAC - Neumann KH 310 A monitors

78 (edited by maartenl 2019-07-25 15:39:15)

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

willem wrote:

As I said before, audio engineering is science, so the rules of scientific validation apply.

Psst... please don't talk science this is a "technical forum"... so you may only talk about things non-technical such as perception ! (haha)

Pitrs wrote:

(This is technical forum. For judging people wrongly please use Facebook instead ;-) . It is not a topic here.)

Amazing that someone with the best ears in the word can be so deaf at the same time.

79 (edited by Pitrs 2019-07-25 15:58:39)

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

N00b wrote:

I would be really curious and impressed to see by my eyes somebody who can really recognize the 3 samples each time.

I'm really carefull with internet, with people who claim to recognize by ear 2 power cables or 2 high end dac etc.

And I have no pretention in sound knowledge or golden ears: I'm a n00b wink And no frustration here. Stop your ticky-tacky psychology.

I am fine with this. It is your approach and I do not mind - why should I?. I am not the one to degrade or laugh to others experience. There are people to claim they hear the power fuse change. I never tried and never will since I am persuaded it is a nonsense. But why should I search for such posts and start the fight? In such cases there is no other motivation than just an ego who wants to fight. An in that case no argument exists. You see it at yourself. I show you a screenshot (which I can hardly fake when all the results are on one page shown alltogether) and you mark me as a lier on one second having absolutely no argument but your wish to defeat....

If you were 15 yo, ok.
If you were 20 yo, well less ok but still somehow understandable.
If you are over 25, then........

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

Pitrs wrote:
N00b wrote:

I would be really curious and impressed to see by my eyes somebody who can really recognize the 3 samples each time.

I'm really carefull with internet, with people who claim to recognize by ear 2 power cables or 2 high end dac etc.

And I have no pretention in sound knowledge or golden ears: I'm a n00b wink And no frustration here. Stop your ticky-tacky psychology.

I am fine with this. It is your approach and I do not mind - why should I?. I am not the one to degrade or laugh to others experience. There are people to claim they hear the power fuse change. I never tried and never will since I am persuaded it is a nonsense. But why should I search for such posts and start the fight? In such cases there is no other motivation than just an ego who wants to fight. An in that case no argument exists. You see it at yourself. I show you a screenshot (which I can hardly fake when all the results are on one page shown alltogether) and you mark me as a lier on one second having absolutely no argument but your wish to defeat....

If you were 15 yo, ok.
If you were 20 yo, well less ok but still somehow understandable.
If you are over 25, then........

Stop attacking me on my age or to tease me about the price of my speakers. Get a life...

ADI-2 DAC - Neumann KH 310 A monitors

81 (edited by maartenl 2019-07-25 16:22:05)

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

N00b wrote:

Stop attacking me on my age or to tease me about the price of my speakers. Get a life...

Just let him (Pitrs), don't feel offended. I think Pitrs is really funny, he makes me laugh, that at least is a good thing. :-)
And I feel confident he can laugh at him self also.

82 (edited by Pitrs 2019-07-25 16:41:29)

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

N00b wrote:
Pitrs wrote:
N00b wrote:

I would be really curious and impressed to see by my eyes somebody who can really recognize the 3 samples each time.

I'm really carefull with internet, with people who claim to recognize by ear 2 power cables or 2 high end dac etc.

And I have no pretention in sound knowledge or golden ears: I'm a n00b wink And no frustration here. Stop your ticky-tacky psychology.

I am fine with this. It is your approach and I do not mind - why should I?. I am not the one to degrade or laugh to others experience. There are people to claim they hear the power fuse change. I never tried and never will since I am persuaded it is a nonsense. But why should I search for such posts and start the fight? In such cases there is no other motivation than just an ego who wants to fight. An in that case no argument exists. You see it at yourself. I show you a screenshot (which I can hardly fake when all the results are on one page shown alltogether) and you mark me as a lier on one second having absolutely no argument but your wish to defeat....

If you were 15 yo, ok.
If you were 20 yo, well less ok but still somehow understandable.
If you are over 25, then........

Stop attacking me on my age or to tease me about the price of my speakers. Get a life...


Not very pleasant, is it. And I even did not write you are a possible liar, did not start to be offensive, did not start to rate your ears, did not laugh at your listening experience etc...

Let us stop it. If someone should get life, here it is you, as for today wink.
With you I still think you are a decent man who just lost it a bit today.
Let us talk next time with more decent respect to others' experiences wink.

Cheers

83 (edited by N00b 2019-07-25 16:41:49)

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

Pitrs wrote:
N00b wrote:
Pitrs wrote:

I am fine with this. It is your approach and I do not mind - why should I?. I am not the one to degrade or laugh to others experience. There are people to claim they hear the power fuse change. I never tried and never will since I am persuaded it is a nonsense. But why should I search for such posts and start the fight? In such cases there is no other motivation than just an ego who wants to fight. An in that case no argument exists. You see it at yourself. I show you a screenshot (which I can hardly fake when all the results are on one page shown alltogether) and you mark me as a lier on one second having absolutely no argument but your wish to defeat....

If you were 15 yo, ok.
If you were 20 yo, well less ok but still somehow understandable.
If you are over 25, then........

Stop attacking me on my age or to tease me about the price of my speakers. Get a life...


Not very pleasant, is it. And I even did not write you are a possible liar...

Let us stop it. With you I still think you are a decent man who just lost it a bit today. Get a life too and let us talk next time with more decent respect to others' experiences wink.

The "rare golden ear (or a lier wink )" came after "nonsense", child and teasing towards the price of my installation.

And I'm not the only one to point out your very weird behaviour here.

That will be my last answer to you: I won't feed the troll anymore. You will have the final word golden boy! wink

ADI-2 DAC - Neumann KH 310 A monitors

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

maartenl wrote:
N00b wrote:

Stop attacking me on my age or to tease me about the price of my speakers. Get a life...

Just let him (Pitrs), don't feel offended. I think Pitrs is really funny, he makes me laugh, that at least is a good thing. :-)
And I feel confident he can laugh at him self also.

I'm not smart enough to laugh at those teasings... My brain is like my ears: cotton-filled!!! I hope both will grow when I will become an adult.

ADI-2 DAC - Neumann KH 310 A monitors

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

N00b wrote:

I'm not smart enough to laugh at those teasings... My brain is like my ears: cotton-filled!!! I hope both will grow when I will become an adult.

Haha !

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

And it is the point - rating the behaviour instead of discussion about the topic.

Get back to the start. I just shared my experience. With no personal or anyhow offensive content. Who started it all? Who started to degrade, laugh and turned to into personal? Who started ignoring facts and turning "childish behaviour" to "you are a child" just to have something to fight with?

And this game on the last word :-D . We did it with my brother when I was 10 or so... This is a discussion. Unfortunetly it ends when one looses it and instead of discussing the topic starts to be personal, offensive. And then the NPR test came where you wanted to "teach" me and you turned red. Because all who hear better than you are liers. No one can do it when you can not do it! What an embarrasment big_smile.

Who should get life?

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

Gents,

This thread is about ADI-Dac Hifi  using a preamp or not?

I really love this dac and dont feel the need for a preamp

(HQplayer -> ADI -> TPA3255evm -> Klipsch)

Enjoy...

88 (edited by maartenl 2019-07-25 17:36:27)

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

chips666 wrote:

Gents,

This thread is about ADI-Dac Hifi  using a preamp or not?

I really love this dac and dont feel the need for a preamp

(HQplayer -> ADI -> TPA3255evm -> Klipsch)

Enjoy...

...but you don't own "extremely high quality audio" so no need to use a pre-amp next to RME DAC in order to "fool yourself (and us)" and hence add "distortion thus coloration = artificial ingredients." which Pitrs prefers :-) ;-P


Haha

89 (edited by maartenl 2019-07-25 17:34:22)

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

Pitrs wrote:

And it is the point - rating the behaviour instead of discussion about the topic.

Get back to the start. I just shared my experience. With no personal or anyhow offensive content. Who started it all? Who started to degrade, laugh and turned to into personal? Who started ignoring facts and turning "childish behaviour" to "you are a child" just to have something to fight with?

And this game on the last word :-D . We did it with my brother when I was 10 or so... This is a discussion. Unfortunetly it ends when one looses it and instead of discussing the topic starts to be personal, offensive. And then the NPR test came where you wanted to "teach" me and you turned red. Because all who hear better than you are liers. No one can do it when you can not do it! What an embarrasment big_smile.

Who should get life?

I believe in you, Pitrs (Audio God) ;-P And you are funny too, again thanks for giving me good laughs !

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

I just read all Pitrs posts: some 90 % are fights with others who he thinks are wrong, fool people, write nonsense etc. Also, in one of his early posts he berates someone who thinks he needs a preamp but Pitrs argues correctly that a DAC such as the ADI-2 is in fact already a pre amp so there is no need for yet another. However, in the current thread he seems to argue the opposite and rather forcefully so.
So my diagnosis is that he just likes a fight.  Let us ignore him.

RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Quad 606-2 power amp, Quad 2805 speakers, B&W PV1d sub with Antimode 8033 Cinema

91 (edited by maartenl 2019-07-25 18:11:38)

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

willem wrote:

I just read all Pitrs posts: some 90 % are fights with others who he thinks are wrong, fool people, write nonsense etc. Also, in one of his early posts he berates someone who thinks he needs a preamp but Pitrs argues correctly that a DAC such as the ADI-2 is in fact already a pre amp so there is no need for yet another. However, in the current thread he seems to argue the opposite and rather forcefully so.
So my diagnosis is that he just likes a fight.  Let us ignore him.

Spot on.

He (Pitrs) provokes a battle by being very firm (without providing any arguments) and then - when others bite - presenting himself as morally superior and as very reasonable. I call it sick behaviour, but luckily I can laugh about it :-)

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

The ADI-2 DAC/Pro/Pro FS are indeed preamps, and very good ones: no audible distorsion, EQ, Dynamic Loundness, configurable and variable B/T ajustements, the automatic switch between 4 hardware levels, the good remote...

ADI-2 DAC - Neumann KH 310 A monitors

93 (edited by Pitrs 2019-07-25 20:42:52)

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

willem:
May I kindly ask you to share a link of any my post in this thread where I "argue for another preamplifier".
With all respect - I did not write a single word supporting this idea. Looking forward the link.

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

N00b wrote:

The ADI-2 DAC/Pro/Pro FS are indeed preamps, and very good ones: no audible distorsion, EQ, Dynamic Loundness, configurable and variable B/T ajustements, the automatic switch between 4 hardware levels, the good remote...

Since it is possible to distinguish Pro from DAC by listening without knowing which one is playing, you'd better should write "no audible distortion in my system, my acoustics and with my ears". The difference is quite well audible and is on +/- same level as for example the difference between 44.1/16 and 320 mp3 = quite easily audible.
No one of us is a speaker of everyone else each of us speaks just for himself (though some would wish to be the ones aroud who the world turns - "no one does anything better than me")

wink

95 (edited by Pitrs 2019-07-25 21:01:47)

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

maartenl wrote:

Spot on.

He (Pitrs) provokes a battle by being very firm (without providing any arguments) and then - when others bite - presenting himself as morally superior and as very reasonable. I call it sick behaviour, but luckily I can laugh about it :-)

Spot on trying to manipulate evidence. Pitrs shares his experience within the topic, purely factual. Some forum trolls decide to start an argue about it using purely personal and offensive way of contributing.
Yes, Pitrs made a mistake that tried to explain and returned same way. I should identify earlier that their only capability and experience is to laugh at others.

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

So, in sum, from reading through this thread (and many similar on this and other forums) I have drawn a number of conclusions.

1.  If you want ‘neutrality’ and ‘accuracy’ and what you believe to be the most faithful reproduction of music possible at this price point, you use the RME as a pre.

2.  If you find that ‘neutral’ and ‘accurate’ to your ears sounds ‘clinical’, ‘bland’, ‘analytical’ or even ‘harsh’ you will use a separate preamp, probably one based on valves.

3.  If you fall into the former camp, you will probably use measurements and ‘science’ to convince yourself that you are correct.  If you fall into the latter camp, you will use your possibly flawed subjective perception to convince yourself that you are correct.

4.  Whichever camp you fall into, you will think the other camp in some way mentally deficient, and will go to great lengths to explain to members of the opposing camp why they are mentally deficient and completely wrong. 

5.  These long explanations (of which I am currently becoming guilty) are boring, and don’t help anyone achieve better sound or more musical enjoyment from their sound systems.  So can we please all just give it a rest and realise that these are just hi tech boxes that transmit noises, not important things like, for example, the future of the EU post-Brexit?

Thanks,

J

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

Pitrs wrote:

Spot on trying to manipulate evidence. Pitrs shares his experience within the topic, purely factual. Some forum trolls decide to start an argue about it using purely personal and offensive way of contributing.
Yes, Pitrs made a mistake that tried to explain and returned same way. I should identify earlier that their only capability and experience is to laugh at others.

Not others, lets stay factual : other (that is you) unless you have multiple personalities than you are right : others.

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

Pitrs wrote:

willem:
May I kindly ask you to share a link of any my post in this thread where I "argue for another preamplifier".
With all respect - I did not write a single word supporting this idea. Looking forward the link.

Pitrs wrote:

And to the question: I use ADI-2 PRO as DAC only having it connected to Parasound P5 preamp.

99 (edited by Pitrs 2019-07-26 05:16:37)

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

maartenl wrote:
Pitrs wrote:

willem:
May I kindly ask you to share a link of any my post in this thread where I "argue for another preamplifier".
With all respect - I did not write a single word supporting this idea. Looking forward the link.

Pitrs wrote:

And to the question: I use ADI-2 PRO as DAC only having it connected to Parasound P5 preamp.

Nice try, but get ready to laugh::you lost it again. Willem was writing about my arguing for pre. Sorry mate big_smile.

There is no argue, my post is a simple factual statement of my connection.

Ridiculos how vainly you try to "get me". You see arguing even in the simplest factual statement. Being driven just by this negativity you always get the shorter straw. And it makes you trying harder with even less success. And on and on. This thread shows it clearly. Enjoy.

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

You are right: I misread - it was Curt. Even so, your posts are a string of fights. There is no point in arguing with such personalities, and even less if they delude themselves in believing that their hearing is more resolving than modern audio analyzers from the likes of Audio Precision and others.

RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Quad 606-2 power amp, Quad 2805 speakers, B&W PV1d sub with Antimode 8033 Cinema