Re: Recommended reading for EQ

I'm still here guys reading when I can but my son has come down with a high fever so I'm focused on that right now.

I'll contribute when I can....

Curt. I tried what you suggested by the way and it absolutely blew me away! 60hz low pass filter just smoothed out the low end fantastically well. Thanks so much. smile
Hearing my music in a whole new light now.... big_smile

I'll be back as soon as I can guys.....

Mike.

RME ADI-2 - Spendor A7's - Arcam SR250 - BK XXLS400 x 2 - ZEN MINI MK3 with LPSU (as a ROON core)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Bingo!!! 

Sometimes we get it Right!  smile

Congrats on your Victory Mate!!

Curt

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Hi!

Yesterday, other tries with REW.


Before corrections:
https://reho.st/self/c068697cc35086c6219aacaeb1e12f9a9404686c.jpg



And after corrections:

https://reho.st/self/b8a5eee3683e92205591397b44fd85cf2d34ec4d.jpg

There is still this "room mode" at 90 Hz, but I think it's useless to try to force the EQ (+ 5 dB - Q 5 at this frequency), and try to figure what in the room cause it...

ADI-2 DAC - Neumann KH 310 A monitors

54 (edited by Curt962 2019-07-22 14:02:00)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Noob,

Bon Jour!    I think the Notch is a function of Boundary Interference (SBIR), and would wager that your Speakers are about 1M from a Wall?   (Front Wall?) This would result in a Path Length difference of 2m between Direct Sound, and Reflected Sound.

Direct Sound from the Speaker combines with that reflected from a Boundary.  At some Frequency, these Waves re-combine Anti-Phase, and result is a Notch in the FR

Handy Math Tool:

Speed of Sound / 2* Path Length Difference = Notch Frequency.

Try it out! 

Curt

55 (edited by N00b 2019-07-22 14:26:22)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Curt962 wrote:

Noob,

Bon Jour!    I think the Notch is a function of Boundary Interference (SBIR), and would wager that your Speakers are about 1M from a Wall?   (Front Wall?) This would result in a Path Length difference of 2m between Direct Sound, and Reflected Sound.

Direct Sound from the Speaker combines with that reflected from a Boundary.  At some Frequency, these Waves re-combine Anti-Phase, and result is a Notch in the FR

Handy Math Tool:

Speed of Sound / 2* Path Length Difference = Notch Frequency.

Try it out! 

Curt

OK, Il will!
The speakers are 30 cm from the wall (Neumann advise to avoid from 0.8 to 1.2 meter from the wall).

And may I try to correct with the EQ the boost at 450 Hz? Or above 200 Hz : DO NOT TOUCH! What is your advice?

ADI-2 DAC - Neumann KH 310 A monitors

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Noob,

I guess you "could" trim down the 450hz bump, but don't drive yourself insane. smile

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Curt962 wrote:

Noob,

I guess you "could" trim down the 450hz bump, but don't drive yourself insane. smile

OK, I will give it a try and check with the mike in different positions.

And I promise: this will be the last correction!! :-P No more EQ band left by the way!

ADI-2 DAC - Neumann KH 310 A monitors

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Hi guys.

Sorry I've been off the radar! With work and sick children, doesn't give you time for much else really! sad

Ok, so I've booked in with the missus (:D) a calibration day on Saturday which I'm really excited about!
I've been listening to lots of REW videos on YouTube whilst driving trying to mentally absorb info for settings etc but I think the link posted at the start of the thread with regards to ROON pretty much covers what I need to know.

I intend to post both before and after pics of a DIRAC sweep and also a sweep via the RME.
The RME one is significant in that I will have to manually alter the EQ myself which is where you guys come in (Curt in particular).

Can someone explain how to post a picture as I've clicked on the image icon but doesn't offer anything up for me as far as choosing a pic from my phone is concerned.

Mike.

RME ADI-2 - Spendor A7's - Arcam SR250 - BK XXLS400 x 2 - ZEN MINI MK3 with LPSU (as a ROON core)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Hey Mike!

Saturday sounds like a fun day for You!    I'm on a Work Assignment, and our Time is GMT:-0600, so you''ll already be doing measurements, whilst 6 Pints deep before I move a Muscle on Sat. smile

I'll keep an Ear out for your comments on Sat. 

Curt

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Curt962 wrote:

Hey Mike!

Saturday sounds like a fun day for You!    I'm on a Work Assignment, and our Time is GMT:-0600, so you''ll already be doing measurements, whilst 6 Pints deep before I move a Muscle on Sat. smile

I'll keep an Ear out for your comments on Sat. 

Curt

Hi Curt.

Thanks pal. Appreciate your help! I'll post again soon.

Mike.

RME ADI-2 - Spendor A7's - Arcam SR250 - BK XXLS400 x 2 - ZEN MINI MK3 with LPSU (as a ROON core)

61 (edited by Curt962 2019-07-24 01:50:21)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Mike, Noob, and All Others...

Let's make Sparkydude's Set Up adjustment process a Showcase  for Forum Involvement!   With Legions of Highly Trained, and Skilled Audio Pros here, this Thread could be the Model, and a Reference Standard for Group Technical Input, and Constructive Cooperation.  Yes?

I'm only a Pilot.  I don't have all the answers!  smile

I say let's do it!!

I think Saturday is the Day.    Tune In!!  smile

Curt

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Curt962 wrote:

Mike, Noob, and All Others...

Let's make Sparkydude's Set Up adjustment process a Showcase  for Forum Involvement!   With Legions of Highly Trained, and Skilled Audio Pros here, this Thread could be the Model, and a Reference Standard for Group Technical Input, and Constructive Cooperation.  Yes?

I'm only a Pilot.  I don't have all the answers!  smile

I say let's do it!!

I think Saturday is the Day.    Tune In!!  smile

Curt

Wow.

No pressure then.. big_smile

Thanks for all your efforts Curt!

Now if I could just learn how to post an image..... LOL

RME ADI-2 - Spendor A7's - Arcam SR250 - BK XXLS400 x 2 - ZEN MINI MK3 with LPSU (as a ROON core)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Sparkydude wrote:

[...]
Now if I could just learn how to post an image..... LOL

I use this tool to upload and post images: https://reho.st/
It's in French, but I'm sure you can figure it out smile

ADI-2 DAC - Neumann KH 310 A monitors

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

N00b wrote:
Sparkydude wrote:

[...]
Now if I could just learn how to post an image..... LOL

I use this tool to upload and post images: https://reho.st/
It's in French, but I'm sure you can figure it out smile

Merci

smile

RME ADI-2 - Spendor A7's - Arcam SR250 - BK XXLS400 x 2 - ZEN MINI MK3 with LPSU (as a ROON core)

65 (edited by willem 2019-07-24 15:19:39)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

I wil follow this with great interest. I have just bought an ADI-2 DAC, and having set the balance and loudness functions, it is now time to start addressing the Parametric Eq. My main speakers are Quad 2805s, with a B&W PV1d subwoofer that is equalized by an Antimode 8033. So the worst issues have been addressed very succesfully by the equalization of the subwoofer (convincing me of the value of dsp room eq), but I want to use the RME to equalize the lower end of the Quads as well. I made some REW measurements of the combination of main speakers and equalized subwoofer some years ago, and that showed that there are indeed remaining room mode issues with the Quads.
And yes, I am very pleased with the ADI-2 DAC.

RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Quad 606-2 power amp, Quad 2805 speakers, B&W PV1d sub with Antimode 8033 Cinema

66 (edited by Curt962 2019-07-25 04:40:03)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Thanks for Joining in Willem!! 

Mike, if possible...email me a Pic of your Speaker Set Up.    As things are...  I need "Clues" as to what might be possible.

In the meanwhile...Friday Evenings are a fine time to treat your Wife to a Nice Meal, and some Drinks. smile     One should never under estimate the TRUE value of bringing your Spouse into the Audio Game, until One has experienced the benefits of doing so  smile

Example:

My Audio System has been re-purposed as a Tool to Evaluate Childrens Music for My Wife's Classroom.   So...I want an ADI-2 DAC?  OK!! (Sayeth the Wife)  smile

More Acoustic Treatment?   No Problem.

Anyway...

Looking forward Mate!

Edit:  Please Understand that we cannot fix all Acoustic Wrongdoings with EQ!   Early Reflections, Standing Waves,Nulls, etc...

Ohhhh...if it were only so easy.

We, together can strive to do our best nonetheless.

PPS:

The "Room" (and our set up within) has been Scientifically Proven to be the Final Arbiter of Sound Quality.   It's very much worth our time to investigate!


Curt

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Curt962 wrote:

Thanks for Joining in Willem!! 

Mike, if possible...email me a Pic of your Speaker Set Up.    As things are...  I need "Clues" as to what might be possible.

In the meanwhile...Friday Evenings are a fine time to treat your Wife to a Nice Meal, and some Drinks. smile     One should never under estimate the TRUE value of bringing your Spouse into the Audio Game, until One has experienced the benefits of doing so  smile

Example:

My Audio System has been re-purposed as a Tool to Evaluate Childrens Music for My Wife's Classroom.   So...I want an ADI-2 DAC?  OK!! (Sayeth the Wife)  smile

More Acoustic Treatment?   No Problem.

Anyway...

Looking forward Mate!

Edit:  Please Understand that we cannot fix all Acoustic Wrongdoings with EQ!   Early Reflections, Standing Waves,Nulls, etc...

Ohhhh...if it were only so easy.

We, together can strive to do our best nonetheless.

PPS:

The "Room" (and our set up within) has been Scientifically Proven to be the Final Arbiter of Sound Quality.   It's very much worth our time to investigate!


Curt

Email sent Curt......

RME ADI-2 - Spendor A7's - Arcam SR250 - BK XXLS400 x 2 - ZEN MINI MK3 with LPSU (as a ROON core)

68 (edited by Curt962 2019-07-26 05:10:06)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Thanks Mike!

Mike (Sparkydude) Graciously took the time to Snap a few Room/Set Up Photos to send to me. 

So...it looks as though we're going to get a bit of a Head Start on our proposed Saturday Project. smile

Sparky, your Room is very nice. Quite Cozy!
I understand that from a "Shared Use/Family" standpoint, we cannot always have everything we wish.  So to that end, let's work with what we DO HAVE.

*  Are those Spendor Tweeters aimed at your Knees??   

Let's get those Speakers tilted backward a bit so that the Tweeters aim at the Ear Level. 

*Corner Loaded Subwoofers. 

This is typically the placement for STRONGEST Bass...not necessarily the most Linear Bass.   I would encourage that We begin with a Sub/Mains Level Matching Exercise.   

Play a Cal signal (Pink Noise) through the mains ONLY at 75-80db.   Without changing anything...play that SAME SIGNAL through the SUBS ONLY.  Adjust the Sub levels to match that recorded by the Mains.   Now our Mains and Subs are on the "Same Page" Levels-Wise.


Addendum:  Mike, as your Subs are positioned in a Diametrically Opposed Fashion, may I suggest we do the Level Matching exercise ONE CHANNEL at a Time.   I don't want to cause a Channel imbalance, etc.   Further, as the Path Length differences from each Sub to Ear are so Wildly different, don't be surprised if one Sub has a "best" phase / level setting different than the other.   We"ll conclude this whole thing with  a Sweep of BOTH CHANNELS at the MLP.   Just to see if we mucked anything up...


* Note:  Perform these Measurements with your Mic PRECISELY at the Listening Position.   Please don't move the Mic at all between tests.  It matters!

Following that whole ordeal, We need a Sweep that concentrates on the Region of the Subwoofer Crossover Freq.   ANY BS (ie: Deep Notches) in the Crossover area suggests that additional adjustment...usually on the Subwoofer itself is in order!   Let's do this Test one channel at a time as well.  Honestly. We could EQ ourselves into the 7th Circle of Hell with a Subwoofer that is incorrectly Polarized to the Mains. smile

For this installment of my Jabber...Let's limit our Test Range to a limited part of the Audio Spectrum.  Let's say...30-500hz.

As Low Frequencies are typically the most problematic,  Let's focus there, and bypass the Ear Piercing Shreeks of HF tones.  For now!   We'll get there...little by little.

We gotta start somewhere!!  If we can just mitigate One or Two of the most troublesome issues, then we've succeeded in moving you a bit closer to enjoying your Music Collection via the ADI-2 DAC like never before.  smile

All the Best!

Curt

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Curt962 wrote:

Thanks Mike!

Mike (Sparkydude) Graciously took the time to Snap a few Room/Set Up Photos to send to me. 

So...it looks as though we're going to get a bit of a Head Start on our proposed Saturday Project. smile

Sparky, your Room is very nice. Quite Cozy!
I understand that from a "Shared Use/Family" standpoint, we cannot always have everything we wish.  So to that end, let's work with what we DO HAVE.

*  Are those Spendor Tweeters aimed at your Knees??   

Let's get those Speakers tilted backward a bit so that the Tweeters aim at the Ear Level. 

*Corner Loaded Subwoofers. 

This is typically the placement for STRONGEST Bass...not necessarily the most Linear Bass.   I would encourage that We begin with a Sub/Mains Level Matching Exercise.   

Play a Cal signal (Pink Noise) through the mains ONLY at 75-80db.   Without changing anything...play that SAME SIGNAL through the SUBS ONLY.  Adjust the Sub levels to match that recorded by the Mains.   Now our Mains and Subs are on the "Same Page" Levels-Wise.


Addendum:  Mike, as your Subs are positioned in a Diametrically Opposed Fashion, may I suggest we do the Level Matching exercise ONE CHANNEL at a Time.   I don't want to cause a Channel imbalance, etc.   Further, as the Path Length differences from each Sub to Ear are so Wildly different, don't be surprised if one Sub has a "best" phase / level setting different than the other.   We"ll conclude this whole thing with  a Sweep of BOTH CHANNELS at the MLP.   Just to see if we mucked anything up...


* Note:  Perform these Measurements with your Mic PRECISELY at the Listening Position.   Please don't move the Mic at all between tests.  It matters!

Following that whole ordeal, We need a Sweep that concentrates on the Region of the Subwoofer Crossover Freq.   ANY BS (ie: Deep Notches) in the Crossover area suggests that additional adjustment...usually on the Subwoofer itself is in order!   Let's do this Test one channel at a time as well.  Honestly. We could EQ ourselves into the 7th Circle of Hell with a Subwoofer that is incorrectly Polarized to the Mains. smile

For this installment of my Jabber...Let's limit our Test Range to a limited part of the Audio Spectrum.  Let's say...30-500hz.

As Low Frequencies are typically the most problematic,  Let's focus there, and bypass the Ear Piercing Shreeks of HF tones.  For now!   We'll get there...little by little.

We gotta start somewhere!!  If we can just mitigate One or Two of the most troublesome issues, then we've succeeded in moving you a bit closer to enjoying your Music Collection via the ADI-2 DAC like never before.  smile

All the Best!

Curt

Hi Curt.

Sorry I haven't responded sooner but I'm not receiving email notifications for some reason?

Anyway, thanks for the compliment on my lounge, my wife will be pleased you said that.. smile.

So, on with business.

The speakers are perfectly level but the tweeters are around 5 centimetres below my ears.
I was hoping the way a tweeter of this type disperses energy, I would be ok.
I was concerned about mucking up the phase of the tweeter and woofer if I tilted the speaker back.
But, if you suggest it, I'll do it seen as though you definitely know what you're talking about!

As far as the subs are concerned, where do I start as far as their own level (gain) dial is concerned?
Do I put them on halfway to begin with or something?
These subs output a huge amount of energy so having them set on half might be too much to begin with.
If it doesn't matter then that's great!

MLP.....

I'll use the centre of the couch (where I listen to music) as the point at which I measure.
Was going to use my movie watching position but realised that DIRAC will be dealing with this and not the RME.

I will follow your instructions to the letter Curt.
I'm going to do a fresh install of REW in the morning so all default settings are correct and ready to go.

Fingers crossed we get some good results tomorrow! smile

RME ADI-2 - Spendor A7's - Arcam SR250 - BK XXLS400 x 2 - ZEN MINI MK3 with LPSU (as a ROON core)

70 (edited by Curt962 2019-07-26 21:47:45)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Mike...don't put THIS "Toss-Pot" on some Pedestal... smile   Most days I'm doing well just Tying my Shoes...

A bit of Rearward tilt to the Speaker wont cause a problem.  ALL the Drivers Tilt at the same time, and still think it best for the Tweeters to aim Spot On at Ear Level, and with a bit of Toe-in that would intersect at, or just behind your Head.   

Amplifier Gain:  Safest bet to start low, and work your way up.   Just remember that your Source Volume must remain Constant in the Level Matching drill...else we'll be chasing our Tails.   In the end, we want Subs and Mains to have a Matching Sound level for any given Input Level.   Make sense?

PS:  I took a Quick Glance at the User Manual for your BK Subs.  Seems like a Capable Unit, but they certainly place a lot of credibility in Setting Levels/Phase by Ear.  Perhaps my Golden Ear is gone to Crap, but I've never had much success doing that.   Our Human Hearing Acuity at Low Freqs isn't so great.   The Methodology I laid out yesterday will yield an accurately set level.   No guesswork a'tall. smile

Curt

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Hi Curt.

Ok, so I'll tilt the speakers back slightly to enable to tweeters to be aimed directly at (or as close as possible) to my ears.
I do agree with you on this to be honest, I do realise that it is vital that the tweeters be at ear level.
This was mentioned in the Stereophile review, these floorstanders aren't tall compared to most full range floorstanders.

Amp gain: Yes, I understand. I'll start with the left then right so I know what level on my amp is 75db which will then give me a guide to what my subs should be set at. I want the subs to be around the halfway mark so I have plenty of room for adjustment if need be.

RME ADI-2 - Spendor A7's - Arcam SR250 - BK XXLS400 x 2 - ZEN MINI MK3 with LPSU (as a ROON core)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

PS:  I took a Quick Glance at the User Manual for your BK Subs.  Seems like a Capable Unit, but they certainly place a lot of credibility in Setting Levels/Phase by Ear.  Perhaps my Golden Ear is gone to Crap, but I've never had much success doing that.   Our Human Hearing Acuity at Low Freqs isn't so great.   The Methodology I laid out yesterday will yield an accurately set level.   No guesswork a'tall.

They are a capable unit and two of them together put out some serious bass if you need it, love the fact they are sealed as the bass is very tight indeed.
BK Electronics do suggest you can calibrate by ear yes but your method is a much better bet. big_smile

RME ADI-2 - Spendor A7's - Arcam SR250 - BK XXLS400 x 2 - ZEN MINI MK3 with LPSU (as a ROON core)

73 (edited by Curt962 2019-07-27 04:54:34)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Today is the Day Mike!!  smile  I'm Really happy for You!

If I may be so Self-Serving...might I request that you take a FR Sweep of your Spendors...Full Range.  Sans/Ohne/Without the Subs in the Mix.  (doing my part to please the French, and German Users you understand)   Yes?  Maybe?

Thanks Mate!!!   This is Fun!!


PS:  I recieved my Dunce Cap back from the Cleaners.  Cleaned, and Pressed.    Just in case. smile

Curt

PPS:  Mike, I ask for the Mains Only test because I have had experiences where the addition of Subs was actually detrimental. It may seem counterintuitive, but experience has shown that exciting every Room Mode with strong Low Freqs can do more harm than good.(hence the Low-Cut Filter given you)  I'm a Sub Lover...but only when they help.  Some Rooms ignore my Wishes...

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

I am beginning to set up the gear and I have one question. I use a sub with DSpeaker Antimode 8033 dsp room eq (for just the sub) and have been very pleased with the improvement from de Antimode. What I am now trying to achieve is to use the adi-2 to also equalize the bottom end of my main speakers playing full range. Do I measure just the main speakers or the combination?

RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Quad 606-2 power amp, Quad 2805 speakers, B&W PV1d sub with Antimode 8033 Cinema

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Curt962 wrote:

Today is the Day Mike!!  smile  I'm Really happy for You!

If I may be so Self-Serving...might I request that you take a FR Sweep of your Spendors...Full Range.  Sans/Ohne/Without the Subs in the Mix.  (doing my part to please the French, and German Users you understand)   Yes?  Maybe?

Thanks Mate!!!   This is Fun!!


PS:  I recieved my Dunce Cap back from the Cleaners.  Cleaned, and Pressed.    Just in case. smile

Curt

PPS:  Mike, I ask for the Mains Only test because I have had experiences where the addition of Subs was actually detrimental. It may seem counterintuitive, but experience has shown that exciting every Room Mode with strong Low Freqs can do more harm than good.(hence the Low-Cut Filter given you)  I'm a Sub Lover...but only when they help.  Some Rooms ignore my Wishes...

Today is indeed the day my friend! smile

I'm really eager to get started but have to wait for the wife to take the kids out first (around 11:30 am) then the fun begins! big_smile
In the meantime, I'll start preparing the room for the sweeps and getting the laptop, microphone and stand ready.

In answer to your request, yes, I'll measure just the mains individually sans the subs as I also just want to see what the speakers are doing full range.
I think that's more important than anything else at the moment.

You're right too in that using subs with your mains can cause extreme low frequency effects to the extent where I've experienced clipping of the mic in the past with DIRAC due to the sub connected in high level being set too high on the gain dial.

I'll do exactly as you ask Curt. I will record everything and take screenshots as I go.

If I need to, I might have to email you the screenshots for you to post as I can't seem to be able to insert images?
I know I've been shown how but it doesn't work for me on windows 10. sad

RME ADI-2 - Spendor A7's - Arcam SR250 - BK XXLS400 x 2 - ZEN MINI MK3 with LPSU (as a ROON core)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

willem wrote:

I am beginning to set up the gear and I have one question. I use a sub with DSpeaker Antimode 8033 dsp room eq (for just the sub) and have been very pleased with the improvement from de Antimode. What I am now trying to achieve is to use the adi-2 to also equalize the bottom end of my main speakers playing full range. Do I measure just the main speakers or the combination?

Hi Willem.

You just need to measure the full range of your speakers without the subs in the mix.
It's the same situation as me, we both need to know what our speakers are doing on their own so we can tame them using the adi-2. smile

RME ADI-2 - Spendor A7's - Arcam SR250 - BK XXLS400 x 2 - ZEN MINI MK3 with LPSU (as a ROON core)

77 (edited by bejoro 2019-07-27 10:08:46)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

I am sure you know that already but just a reminder.

You may have to take into account that DSP subwoofers always add a delay. To preserve the correct timing you have to reduce the distance between listening position and subwoofer position by that delay. Pure analog subwoofers (without any DSP) usually do not add any delay.

You have to ask the subwoofer manufacturer for the amount of delay that will be added by the sub's DSP.

1 ms delay corresponds to 33.15 cm. Delays from 1.5 ms to over 3 ms are very common, so you have to ask.

It is important to maintain the same distance between listening position and speaker/sub position for a very good impulse response.

Warm regards,
Bernhard Rother
enjoy-audio.de

78 (edited by Sparkydude 2019-07-27 11:04:36)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

bejoro wrote:

I am sure you know that already but just a reminder.

You may have to take into account that DSP subwoofers always add a delay. To preserve the correct timing you have to reduce the distance between listening position and subwoofer position by that delay. Pure analog subwoofers (without any DSP) usually do not add any delay.

You have to ask the subwoofer manufacturer for the amount of delay that will be added by the sub's DSP.

1 ms delay corresponds to 33.15 cm. Delays from 1.5 ms to over 3 ms are very common, so you have to ask.

It is important to maintain the same distance between listening position and speaker/sub position for a very good impulse response.

Hi.

Yes, I'm aware of the effect that a subwoofer with a "digital" plate has on the delay.
I used to have a pair of SVS SB2000's that have DSP and it had a noticeable effect on my ability to get the time domain sorted.

I ditched them for a pair of the BK subs I have now.
I bought them not only for their reputation as an excellent sub, but the fact that they have a toroidal PSU so no DSP whatsoever.

Thanks for mentioning it though as most people aren't aware of this affect.

Mike.

RME ADI-2 - Spendor A7's - Arcam SR250 - BK XXLS400 x 2 - ZEN MINI MK3 with LPSU (as a ROON core)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

One thing I don't understand is....

If you have two subwoofers but only have the ability within your amp settings to adjust the distance for one subwoofer, what distance do you put in?

My first sub from MLP is 9 foot (2.47 mtrs) on the right and my second sub is 13 foot (3.96 mtrs) on the left.

Is there a formula you have to use to determine the combined distance?

RME ADI-2 - Spendor A7's - Arcam SR250 - BK XXLS400 x 2 - ZEN MINI MK3 with LPSU (as a ROON core)

80 (edited by bejoro 2019-07-27 12:09:25)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Unfortunately there is no combined distance. Only if each subwoofer has the identical distance to your listening position, both wavefronts will reach your ears simultaneously. Only a digital delay, equally effective at all bass frequencies can help. The usual analog delays (phase shift) produce a frequency dependant delay, which ruins the impulse response.

So a sub with a well designed DSP feature set can help. Most home cinema subwoofers, even expensive ones, do not always support all the necessary DSP features because they are mostly used with AV amps/processors which include all the distance measurements and calculations. In that case an analog subwoofer is also very sufficient or even desirable.

For a 2-channel speakers/subwoofer setup, the DSP features of subwoofers can help to solve some problems like different distances.

Please keep in mind that also your speakers AND subwoofers have to have the identical distance to your listening position, usually and ideally all positioned on a circle around your listening postion (subtracted by the DSP delay for each subwoofer).

A very well calibrated speaker/subwoofer setup can solve many room problems and mostly provide a far better listening experience than pure large speaker setups. But they are not very pupular with the usual "HiFi customer" (if something like that exists) and difficult to setup correctly.

I am a big fan of speakers/subwoofers setups but no one asks for it, so I do not sell them any more. It's a shame.

Oh, one additional thing that comes to my mind:
In a stereo (2-ch) setup always use two independant subwoofers, one for the left and one for the right channel. With one subwoofer you always have only the mono bass signal which can result in a cancellation of different bass frequencies.

Sorry, maybe too much infornation nobody asked for.

Warm regards,
Bernhard Rother
enjoy-audio.de

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

No Bejoro, not too much information: very interesting indeed smile

ADI-2 DAC - Neumann KH 310 A monitors

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Well guys, I've started to measure my mains and I'm thoroughly depressed now!

The individual measurements are truly awful with huge suck outs and large peaks across the entire range.
I've either done something wrong or my speakers just don't play nice in this room!
Even my old Dali Opticon speakers (which were over 2 grand cheaper than what I have now) measured far better than these speakers! sad

I cannot post pictures on here at all.

I have tried to do it numerous times but there isn't even a tab to select an image from a file??

RME ADI-2 - Spendor A7's - Arcam SR250 - BK XXLS400 x 2 - ZEN MINI MK3 with LPSU (as a ROON core)

83 (edited by ramses 2019-07-27 13:10:27)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Sure its possible, maybe not the way you know it from some other forums.

You place the jpg file to your dropbox, share the image and copy paste the URL to this forum.

If you have the URL in this editor here, then mark it with your left mouse key and press the "img-button" so that the image tags are automatically wrapped around the text.

Before you post change the URL from "...dl=0" to "...dl=1" then the pictures will be loaded automatically when reading your posting.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, Win7 Prof, Cubase 9.5, UFX+, Octamic XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS BE/DAC, RayDAT, ARC USB

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Good Morning All!!

Bernd, Great Inputs!!  Thanks!   

Mike...Deep Breath Mate!   Let's pick this apart piece by piece!  smile

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

I've measure both speaker together and it seems to have calmed all the mess down a bit.
Seems more linear now although still isn't great to my eye.

I'm going to re-read the link that was posted at the beginning of this thread to see if I can get some insight into if I'm going wrong with this?

RME ADI-2 - Spendor A7's - Arcam SR250 - BK XXLS400 x 2 - ZEN MINI MK3 with LPSU (as a ROON core)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Sparkydude wrote:

[...]

I have tried to do it numerous times but there isn't even a tab to select an image from a file??

Use this tool: https://reho.st/
You pick your image, you send it, the tool upload it and then it gives you the code to post it on a forum.

ADI-2 DAC - Neumann KH 310 A monitors

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

God.

Subwoofers are even worse! This is a bit of a disaster really.

sad

I'll keep on trying to post pics but I'm not able at present.

RME ADI-2 - Spendor A7's - Arcam SR250 - BK XXLS400 x 2 - ZEN MINI MK3 with LPSU (as a ROON core)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Mike,

Email me a Pic.   I'm on a Smart Phone so fat chance I can post it, but I know who can!

Curt

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Here goes:

https://reho.st/self/528ae7ebed64e226cba820b7bfa8f16ae4bf38f5.png

RME ADI-2 - Spendor A7's - Arcam SR250 - BK XXLS400 x 2 - ZEN MINI MK3 with LPSU (as a ROON core)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Left speaker:


https://reho.st/self/282cc819f2ee2266e6848d96dc79bd5dc3500142.png

RME ADI-2 - Spendor A7's - Arcam SR250 - BK XXLS400 x 2 - ZEN MINI MK3 with LPSU (as a ROON core)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Right speaker

https://reho.st/self/940d5210d623a9c88fa6bba524f30dd8a51a004f.png

RME ADI-2 - Spendor A7's - Arcam SR250 - BK XXLS400 x 2 - ZEN MINI MK3 with LPSU (as a ROON core)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

I don't know if I've put the right limits in really?

I've set it to 1/6th smoothing as it was a real mess to begin with.
I set my levels at 75dB as suggested.
Gotta be honest, I'm really disheartened by this.

RME ADI-2 - Spendor A7's - Arcam SR250 - BK XXLS400 x 2 - ZEN MINI MK3 with LPSU (as a ROON core)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Mike,

Apply 1/3 Octave smoothing.   That may help us get a less confusing graph

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Curt962 wrote:

Mike,

Apply 1/3 Octave smoothing.   That may help us get a less confusing graph

REW has just crashed and I've lost all my results. sad


Ok. I messed up with the limits which is why it looked so awful!


I'm just re-doing the measurements for the mains now at 1/3rd smoothing.
Initial runs look good. Hang on guys.

RME ADI-2 - Spendor A7's - Arcam SR250 - BK XXLS400 x 2 - ZEN MINI MK3 with LPSU (as a ROON core)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

I use the variable smoothing: more smoothing on HF. I find it more realistic.

ADI-2 DAC - Neumann KH 310 A monitors

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

We're here Mate!

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Left speaker with mic at exact seating position and correct ear height.
Speaker angled towards ear almost perfect so tweeter is aiming precisely at my ear

https://reho.st/self/16be345d1ecdc9bd9f7fc658a4a0162c82b21da5.png

RME ADI-2 - Spendor A7's - Arcam SR250 - BK XXLS400 x 2 - ZEN MINI MK3 with LPSU (as a ROON core)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

That's more like it! I knew I was doing something wrong somewhere. big_smile
Was going to abandon it to be honest.

that's with 1/3rd smoothing.

I'll post 1/6th for maybe a more accurate representation.....

https://reho.st/self/90f96baf7163073bc69cb1710f96b02f17f48afd.png

RME ADI-2 - Spendor A7's - Arcam SR250 - BK XXLS400 x 2 - ZEN MINI MK3 with LPSU (as a ROON core)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Well now!!!  That looks reasonably good.

Label/Save that measurement, and let's try moving the Mic location a bit Fore, or Aft.  Maybe 30cm or so each way.   Maybe determine where that 55-60hz dip is coming from. 

Curt

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Right speaker:

https://reho.st/self/b1af3f8f4bfe22208e9dbb1ef9aaef8862f0c1b1.png


https://reho.st/self/8be08ce0fc0b4cb3787efa265d25184dbd1b17ec.png

RME ADI-2 - Spendor A7's - Arcam SR250 - BK XXLS400 x 2 - ZEN MINI MK3 with LPSU (as a ROON core)