Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Obvious difference between 1/3rd and 1/6th.

My eyes are drawn to the naturally smoother 1/3rd but I know its because it looks prettier!

What do you guys think?

RME ADI-2 - Spendor A7's - Arcam SR250 - BK XXLS400 x 2 - ZEN MINI MK3 with LPSU (as a ROON core)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

bejoro wrote:

Unfortunately there is no combined distance. Only if each subwoofer has the identical distance to your listening position, both wavefronts will reach your ears simultaneously. Only a digital delay, equally effective at all bass frequencies can help. The usual analog delays (phase shift) produce a frequency dependant delay, which ruins the impulse response.

So a sub with a well designed DSP feature set can help. Most home cinema subwoofers, even expensive ones, do not always support all the necessary DSP features because they are mostly used with AV amps/processors which include all the distance measurements and calculations. In that case an analog subwoofer is also very sufficient or even desirable.

For a 2-channel speakers/subwoofer setup, the DSP features of subwoofers can help to solve some problems like different distances.

Please keep in mind that also your speakers AND subwoofers have to have the identical distance to your listening position, usually and ideally all positioned on a circle around your listening postion (subtracted by the DSP delay for each subwoofer).

A very well calibrated speaker/subwoofer setup can solve many room problems and mostly provide a far better listening experience than pure large speaker setups. But they are not very pupular with the usual "HiFi customer" (if something like that exists) and difficult to setup correctly.

I am a big fan of speakers/subwoofers setups but no one asks for it, so I do not sell them any more. It's a shame.

Oh, one additional thing that comes to my mind:
In a stereo (2-ch) setup always use two independant subwoofers, one for the left and one for the right channel. With one subwoofer you always have only the mono bass signal which can result in a cancellation of different bass frequencies.

Sorry, maybe too much infornation nobody asked for.

You can never give us too much information friend!

Keep it coming! We less informed guys have to start somewhere and learning from you is the icing on the cake! smile

RME ADI-2 - Spendor A7's - Arcam SR250 - BK XXLS400 x 2 - ZEN MINI MK3 with LPSU (as a ROON core)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Curt962 wrote:

Well now!!!  That looks reasonably good.

Label/Save that measurement, and let's try moving the Mic location a bit Fore, or Aft.  Maybe 30cm or so each way.   Maybe determine where that 55-60hz dip is coming from. 

Curt

OK Curt. I'll do that!

RME ADI-2 - Spendor A7's - Arcam SR250 - BK XXLS400 x 2 - ZEN MINI MK3 with LPSU (as a ROON core)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

OK Curt.

Left speaker: Red at MLP, Yellow 30 cms forward towards front of couch.

https://reho.st/self/844f08b5baef3e919848406c30b4aaef1e2aede6.png

RME ADI-2 - Spendor A7's - Arcam SR250 - BK XXLS400 x 2 - ZEN MINI MK3 with LPSU (as a ROON core)

105 (edited by willem 2019-07-27 14:50:11)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

I have also started measuring. Response from just above 100 Hz, tbe Schroeder frequency of the room, is pretty flat. Below that (and without the sub) response is very uneven, and at a much lower level. I have boosted bass as a result. Measuring the main/sub combination as well it is clear that I crossover too low and play the sub at a too low level.

RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Quad 606-2 power amp, Quad 2805 speakers, B&W PV1d sub with Antimode 8033 Cinema

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Right speaker: Turquiose at MLP. Purple at 30 cms forward.

https://reho.st/self/d34ee375cdfe6cb56936b064f9a86be4a64fef05.png

RME ADI-2 - Spendor A7's - Arcam SR250 - BK XXLS400 x 2 - ZEN MINI MK3 with LPSU (as a ROON core)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

willem wrote:

I have also started measuring. Response from just above 100 Hz, tbe Schroeder frequency of the room, is pretty flat. Below that (and without the sub) response is very uneven, and at a much lower level. I have boosted bass as a result. Measuring the main/sub combination as well it is clear that I crossover too low and play the sub at a too low level.

Can you post your results Willem?

I like to see how other peoples equipment compares against mine... smile

RME ADI-2 - Spendor A7's - Arcam SR250 - BK XXLS400 x 2 - ZEN MINI MK3 with LPSU (as a ROON core)

108 (edited by Curt962 2019-07-27 15:00:15)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Thanks Sparky.   We see the Dip changing in Freq (a little)with Mic movement.  This suggests to my groggy head,  that the Dip is due to the influence of a Room Boundary.  Quite likely, the Wall behind the MLP.   

Hmmmm....

This Yank says you should pull the Sofa forward 30cm, and have a Seat.  That Plot looked much more agreeable.  smile

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Couch moved forward slightly.

More than my wife would allow! big_smile

https://reho.st/self/4529a1537b1a5b8cad5af8da27373579a06e48aa.png

RME ADI-2 - Spendor A7's - Arcam SR250 - BK XXLS400 x 2 - ZEN MINI MK3 with LPSU (as a ROON core)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

purple is the new position.

Slight improvement...…

I hope this is enough for you to see where my issues lie and if you could recommend some adjustments for the RME?

RME ADI-2 - Spendor A7's - Arcam SR250 - BK XXLS400 x 2 - ZEN MINI MK3 with LPSU (as a ROON core)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Mike,

The Q of the depression in the 100-250hz range is quite broad, so let's apply a bit of boost.   

B2  +3db 150hz Q0.5 and give that a Whirl.

IMO...that's an important range, that brings a "Fullness" to a well-recorded Vocal, etc.   Too much, and even a Female sounds Chesty (but not in the accepted manner. smile

Take that EQ for a Test Drive.

Curt

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

I am running a bit behind. Response above the Schroeder frequency of the room at about 110 Hz is nice and flat, below that it is pretty jagged  with four identifiable peaks. That is the easy bit. However response also falls off more than I expected even though the quad 2805s are obviously no bass monsters. However measuring with the subwoofer there is more but not that much more and there also seems to be a hole between sub and main speakers. I had set the low pass filter of the sub at 33 Hz as per B&W instructions and that sounded fine. Raising sub volume and cross over hardly changed the graph but sounded pretty awful. So I am wondering if there is something wrong with my measuring mic or mic amp.
I suppose I might set the filters anyway to eliminate the four peaks at 25, 42, 66 and 108 Hz.

RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Quad 606-2 power amp, Quad 2805 speakers, B&W PV1d sub with Antimode 8033 Cinema

113 (edited by Curt962 2019-07-27 16:19:14)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Willem,

The "Hole" in the Response between Mains, and Sub is indicative of a Polarity issue.  You can simply reverse the Polarity of either the Mains OR the Subs.  Either, or.

Try that, and see.

Curt

PS:   33hz Low-Pass on the Subs seems "odd"   Crossing at 60 or 80hz would likely show the Subs in a better light.

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

I tried that and it looks marginally better. However there is still a valley of perhaps -20 dB between 40 and 90 Hz, apart from the narrow dips from room modes. But trying to raise that part of the spectrum by increasing subwoofer action sounded awful. I also used the tone control to boost bass some 5 dB below 85 Hz and even that made the sound more woolly.

RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Quad 606-2 power amp, Quad 2805 speakers, B&W PV1d sub with Antimode 8033 Cinema

115 (edited by willem 2019-07-27 16:24:59)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

I tried crossing at higher frequencies but it was awfully muddled. The 33 Hz was following B&W instructions. Even a few Hz higher made for a woolly sound.
Maybe I should just get on with the filters as these are likely to clean up the sound quite a bit.

RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Quad 606-2 power amp, Quad 2805 speakers, B&W PV1d sub with Antimode 8033 Cinema

116 (edited by Curt962 2019-07-27 16:28:06)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

No.  Don't try to boost a Null.   The Null will remain, but you begin to Run out of Ampilfier Power, and strain Speakers.   Added distortion is the result.

As Sparky demonstrated, try moving the Mic fore/aft in 30cm increments to see if your Seating Location needs adjustment.    This is a distinct possubility.

Curt

Further, have you Level Matched your Subs and Mains??

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

I don't think this wide valley is a null but I could investigate. I am aware I should not boost nulls. The sub is more or less level matched but that only applies to the range below the low pass crossover.
Time to cook dinner now. Will first try to install the four filters to lower the four peaks below the Schroeder frequency. I am afraid I am still struggling with the ADI's menu system.

RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Quad 606-2 power amp, Quad 2805 speakers, B&W PV1d sub with Antimode 8033 Cinema

118 (edited by Curt962 2019-07-27 16:56:20)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Get something to Eat Willem!!  smile

When listening to Music, do you have a nicely focused center image, or is it seemingly strewn about the room?

I just wonder if your Speakers might be anti-phase with each other.   There would be no end to that show!

I/0 Menu of your ADI 2 DAC.   Polarity. (Phase Invert)
Options are: Off, Left, Right, Both.  An errant keystroke here could lead to such a dilemna. See Page 20 of the User Manual.

119 (edited by willem 2019-07-27 16:57:33)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Will try that but imaging seems fine. I just noticed that John Atkinson measured them quite similarly in his room. But why can I not fill in that valley without making it all sound like a cheap disco?

RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Quad 606-2 power amp, Quad 2805 speakers, B&W PV1d sub with Antimode 8033 Cinema

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Willem,

ESL type Speakers present challenges, and can be quite critical regarding placement, to avoid the Dipolar Cancellation effects that I think now we're seeing.     

Placement experimentation, and even Acoustic Treatment behind the Speakers is the best advice I can offer at the moment.

Curt

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Curt962 wrote:

Mike,

The Q of the depression in the 100-250hz range is quite broad, so let's apply a bit of boost.   

B2  +3db 150hz Q0.5 and give that a Whirl.

IMO...that's an important range, that brings a "Fullness" to a well-recorded Vocal, etc.   Too much, and even a Female sounds Chesty (but not in the accepted manner. smile

Take that EQ for a Test Drive.

Curt

Hi Curt.

So I've had a play around with the settings but found your initial B1 setting clashes with B2 due to the roll off as the level meter says "ovr" continually.

Can you have another look at my frequency response graph and give me a new set of rules to play with as I have no clue at all. sad

RME ADI-2 - Spendor A7's - Arcam SR250 - BK XXLS400 x 2 - ZEN MINI MK3 with LPSU (as a ROON core)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Let's move the B2 Filter to 200hz, and reduce Gain to 2db.     See if that gives some relief. 

Curt

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

My current EQ settings are:

B1 - G -8.0 F -60 Q -0.8
B2 - G +1.0 F -150 Q -0.5

I was still getting too much bass even at 50hz so I've brought it up to 60 to try to tame it which it certainly has.

I'm sure if you were here you'd have it sorted within 5 minutes! big_smile

RME ADI-2 - Spendor A7's - Arcam SR250 - BK XXLS400 x 2 - ZEN MINI MK3 with LPSU (as a ROON core)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

So, let's bump B2 to 200hz...

If we must, Raise the Q a bit.  That will narrow the affected range of frequencies, and perhaps help to better avoid any Conflict in the Filters.

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

I've just put Pink Floyd on to test it all out and to be honest its actually sounding really good with good control on bass.
Vocals are crystal clear too with cymbals and hi-hats sounding clean and crisp with good attack.
It was a touch bright but then I realised I had the SHARP filter on! I changed it to SD-Slow and that sorted that right out.

This DAC is quite amazing it really is! I'm over the moon with it!

I wouldn't be able to enjoy my music the way I am without your help (in particular Curt) smile

I'm sure theres a couple of things I could do to improve it though I guess......There always is big_smile

RME ADI-2 - Spendor A7's - Arcam SR250 - BK XXLS400 x 2 - ZEN MINI MK3 with LPSU (as a ROON core)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Curt962 wrote:

So, let's bump B2 to 200hz...

If we must, Raise the Q a bit.  That will narrow the affected range of frequencies, and perhaps help to better avoid any Conflict in the Filters.

Ok Curt, I'll give that a whirl mate......

RME ADI-2 - Spendor A7's - Arcam SR250 - BK XXLS400 x 2 - ZEN MINI MK3 with LPSU (as a ROON core)

127 (edited by Curt962 2019-07-27 21:17:51)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Sparky,

You did all the Work Mate!!!    (Whilst I merely sat 5000miles away...
"Pontificating" smile

Getting a bit smoother Response down low overall was an achievement!!  Well Done!!

Have a Pint, and Play some Music.  You earned it!!

Curt

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Cheers pal but without your input I wouldn't be sitting here now enjoying my music and a cheeky pint. smile

I think you mean PINTificating as you seem to like a few brewskies yourself...happy days....:D

You're a good 'un for sticking with me.

I'll be posting again soon don't you worry...….

RME ADI-2 - Spendor A7's - Arcam SR250 - BK XXLS400 x 2 - ZEN MINI MK3 with LPSU (as a ROON core)

129 (edited by Curt962 2019-07-27 21:33:23)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Mike, let's not forget the contributions of other Forum Members...not the least of which was your Wife, who granted you an entire day of Audio Time.    smile

Stay in touch!    You have my email.   

Happy Listening for You!

Curt

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

All...

Here's a helpful bit of information you might find quite useful. 

http://arqen.com/acoustics-101/speaker- … erference/

Curt

131 (edited by willem 2019-07-28 08:18:02)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

I did a few more measurements. I moved the speaker further into the room. This was slightly better but not by much, and quite inconvenient.
I also moved the microphone, first much further away from and then much closer to the speakers. Closer to the speakers was marginally better but really only marginally. It was louder across the entire spectrum of course. I also opened the large sliding doors to my wife's study and to the dining room, but t no avail.
I also did separate measurements with and without the sub.The sub comes in very clearly below about 45 Hz. Above that the two curves are very similar. I have a pretty massive suck out between 45 Hz and 65 Hz. That probably explains why raising the cossover frequency did not help. The reduced level from 65-100 Hz is then probably just reduced response from the main speakers.
So I guess what I should now try is to move the subwoofer. It currently sits right in one corner as per DSpeaker advice. And maybe a second sub.

RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Quad 606-2 power amp, Quad 2805 speakers, B&W PV1d sub with Antimode 8033 Cinema

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Pulled the sub out of the corner by as much as the cable allowed (1m). This only made matters a bit worse, probably because the sub is now closer to the left main speaker
I need to find a longer cable.

RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Quad 606-2 power amp, Quad 2805 speakers, B&W PV1d sub with Antimode 8033 Cinema

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Curt962 wrote:

All...

Here's a helpful bit of information you might find quite useful. 

http://arqen.com/acoustics-101/speaker- … erference/

Curt

This link is excellent, thanks for posting Curt.

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Yes, much to digest.

RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Quad 606-2 power amp, Quad 2805 speakers, B&W PV1d sub with Antimode 8033 Cinema

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

I just tried to see if damping behind the main speakers makes a difference, given that they are dipoles. I added some big cushions. Sadly, the null is still there.

RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Quad 606-2 power amp, Quad 2805 speakers, B&W PV1d sub with Antimode 8033 Cinema

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Willem,

If you would be so kind to send me a few Snapshots of your Speaker/Seating Positioning, perhaps I can better understand what obstacles we face.   Truthfully, it has been YEARS since I last wrestled with ESLs (Martin Logan CLS), but the Physics of the Matter is still the same. 

Let's just put our Heads together, do some Study, and collectively find a Solution that helps You. 

My email link is shown here.

Regards,

Curt

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

willem wrote:

I just tried to see if damping behind the main speakers makes a difference, given that they are dipoles. I added some big cushions. Sadly, the null is still there.

I feel your pain Willem. sad

It's really disheartening isn't it when you try your best to get a good response from your speakers and subs.
I'm still a little unhappy with the outcome on my subs but that's purely down to placement and room size.
In a room as small as mine, big peaks and nulls are just a reality we have to accept.

Don't give up though, you could literally be a few inches away from finding the perfect spot for your speakers.

Good luck!

RME ADI-2 - Spendor A7's - Arcam SR250 - BK XXLS400 x 2 - ZEN MINI MK3 with LPSU (as a ROON core)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

+1

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Dear Curt,
That is very kind of you, but I am really no good with thongs like sending pictures by email. Normally my wife and duagjter do this for me but they have gone on holiday now leaving me to write up some piece of research

RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Quad 606-2 power amp, Quad 2805 speakers, B&W PV1d sub with Antimode 8033 Cinema

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

And then the rest of my post got lost in the digital underworld. Sorry - will come back after dinner (relocated the sub with quite good results).

RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Quad 606-2 power amp, Quad 2805 speakers, B&W PV1d sub with Antimode 8033 Cinema

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

The forum clearly does funny things, each time I tried to resend my post.

RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Quad 606-2 power amp, Quad 2805 speakers, B&W PV1d sub with Antimode 8033 Cinema

142 (edited by Sparkydude 2019-07-28 18:27:19)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Curt962 wrote:

All...

Here's a helpful bit of information you might find quite useful. 

http://arqen.com/acoustics-101/speaker- … erference/

Curt

Really useful Curt!

Unfortunately, it just confirms that if you're in a difficult room with placement you can't alter, you're kinda screwed.

That's the big difference between UK and USA homes, UK homes are generally built much much smaller. sad

My brother-in-laws basement at his home in Utah is bigger than the entire floor plan (including rear garden) of my home.

I wish I had that kind of room to play with I'm telling you!

RME ADI-2 - Spendor A7's - Arcam SR250 - BK XXLS400 x 2 - ZEN MINI MK3 with LPSU (as a ROON core)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

willem wrote:

The forum clearly does funny things, each time I tried to resend my post.

big_smile

It's done that to me a few times!
Either not posted my words or cut them off halfway down.

It even called me a "spamming idiot" on the first page when I started the thread! big_smile

RME ADI-2 - Spendor A7's - Arcam SR250 - BK XXLS400 x 2 - ZEN MINI MK3 with LPSU (as a ROON core)

144 (edited by willem 2019-07-28 18:57:49)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

So briefly now. I moved the sub well into the room, along the long wall. This was much better so I also raised the crossover to 80 Hz. The  null is now a narrow dip rather than a wide valley. I also recalibrated the sub's response with the Antimode 8033 which flattened the bottom end nicely. The only peaks left are at 25 and particularly 15 Hz (even with the subsonic filter activated): the I AM A SPAMMING IDIOT furniture is rattling). And of course the peak at 115 Hz is still there as it had nothing to do with the sub.
Sound is rather better although there is still a deep bass thud. Time to get better at using the rme eq screen (I cannot make any sense of it).

RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Quad 606-2 power amp, Quad 2805 speakers, B&W PV1d sub with Antimode 8033 Cinema

145 (edited by Curt962 2019-07-28 19:07:16)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Sorry Guys, but I haven't gotten notifications in my email regarding your new Posts...alas...

**Willem.   Mad Science Experiment for You...

Let's take a few Sofa Cushions, and position them directly at the Rear of one of your Quads.   Cover the Back Side of the Speaker completely.  Run an REW Sweep through the Bass Range on ONLY the "Modified" Speaker, and see what happens to the Suck Out which seems centered at approx 55hz in your set up.   The Objective of this is to attenuate somewhat the Backwave of your Quad, which then reflects back antiphase, and Nulls the Speaker output.    This experiment would perhaps give us greater insight, and it doesn't cost a Penny.  smile

Curt

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

willem wrote:

So briefly now. I moved the sub well into the room, along the long wall. This was much better so I also raised the crossover to 80 Hz. The  null is now a narrow dip rather than a wide valley. I also recalibrated the sub's response with the Antimode 8033 which flattened the bottom end nicely. The only peaks left are at 25 and particularly 15 Hz (even with the subsonic filter activated): the I AM A SPAMMING IDIOT furniture is rattling). And of course the peak at 115 Hz is still there as it had nothing to do with the sub.
Sound is rather better although there is still a deep bass thud. Time to get better at using the rme eq screen (I cannot make any sense of it).

Hi.

Are you measuring your sub/s for movies or music?
If it's for movies, the peak at 115hz is irrelevant as your crossover is set to 80hz so your sub will never see above 80hz.
If it's music, you generally use the high level input and blend by ear.......

I'm sorry if you've already posted your reason but I've been concentrating on my own EQ.
I'll re-read the thread.

RME ADI-2 - Spendor A7's - Arcam SR250 - BK XXLS400 x 2 - ZEN MINI MK3 with LPSU (as a ROON core)

147 (edited by Curt962 2019-07-28 19:28:24)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Willem,

I wonder if those Peaks at 15hz, and 25hz even WITH your Subsonic Filter,  aren't actually noises being introduced to the Room Tests by such things as Appliances, Ventilation Systems, etc.   Noisy buggers!   

Please understand also that there is NO Meaningful Music content at those Frequencies, and it's unlikely we could hear them anyway.   You might FEEL them, but that's all. 

Curt

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

@Curt962

What is this and why do I need it?

Dynamic Loudness and Auto Vol Ref.

I've just re-read the thread and noticed you advocate the use of the above.

I think my Auto Vol Ref is set to off as I'm obviously using the line out for an amplifier.
In fact, the line out is at "fixed".

RME ADI-2 - Spendor A7's - Arcam SR250 - BK XXLS400 x 2 - ZEN MINI MK3 with LPSU (as a ROON core)

149 (edited by Curt962 2019-07-28 19:45:20)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Mike,

Take a look at your User Manual regarding these features.   It explains in considerable detail the Functions of these Systems, and their Value to the User.   Great Stuff Mate!

Curt

*In a Nutshell, Auto-Ref allows the Digital Volume Control of the ADI-2 DAC to work at its Optimum S/N range, and Dynamic Loudness is a Compensatory System that adjusts Bass/Treble response in the manner defined by the scientifically proven Fletcher-Munson research.  As listening levels decrease, our Ears lose sensitivity at both ends of Audio Spectrum.

150 (edited by willem 2019-07-28 20:00:24)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Dear Curt,
Mechanical noise was a good hypothesis: I turned off all fans etc and the 15 Hz peak is gone. The quite big peaks around 25 and 40 Hz remain, and they also show with the sub turned off. So the Antimode does nothing for them and I need to address them with the rme filters. It was precisely for the facility to also equalize my main speakers that I bought the ADI-2. But boy what an incomprehensible interfac.

RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Quad 606-2 power amp, Quad 2805 speakers, B&W PV1d sub with Antimode 8033 Cinema