Re: HOWTO: Low DPC latencies (<100 us) on bootcamped Macbooks (Pro)

Well, I'm doing it all the time and never experienced a problem. Where did you read that? In the end, all you can do is try.

52 (edited by Timur 2009-03-31 10:57:28)

Re: HOWTO: Low DPC latencies (<100 us) on bootcamped Macbooks (Pro)

The following screenshots should help you find the options in Rivatuner that allow you to set the graphic-card to a fixed performance level.

First you need to unlock the option:

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/8919/rivatunerperflevelforci.png

Then you go to the System Tweaks settings:

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/2470/rtcustomize.png

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/1682/rtsystemtweaks.png

Then you have to set a desired performance level (I advice to use lowpower 3D unless you want to play some performance 3D games):

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/1337/rivatunerlowpower3d.png

53

Re: HOWTO: Low DPC latencies (<100 us) on bootcamped Macbooks (Pro)

Timur, thanks for your efforts!

What version of rivatuner are you using? I can't see the customise option on my macbook with W7 x64....


Using balanced power plan I'm getting the occasional red DPC spike, once every couple of minutes.

I just tried switching to performance power plan and they are less frequent but still there.



I don't think I had them with Vista x64? Not sure...




Ta smile

54 (edited by Timur 2009-04-08 15:33:47)

Re: HOWTO: Low DPC latencies (<100 us) on bootcamped Macbooks (Pro)

The Customize option is the most basic/important feature of Rivatuner since the beginning. wink

So if you cannot see it then probably your graphic-card driver isn't supported. Are you using the Microsoft default driver by chance? Try installing the latest driver download from NVidia.

It's been a while that I tested W7, but as far as I remember there shouldn't be any much difference with Rivatuner. W7 works better concerning the bad custom WLAN drivers though. After some trying around I even managed to make all Apple drivers install and work.

Concerning your occassional spikes, try surfing the web (scrolling around) and watch the spikes or move a window over the animated GUI (meters) of your host. Do the spikes increase? If so then they might be graphic-driver related.

55

Re: HOWTO: Low DPC latencies (<100 us) on bootcamped Macbooks (Pro)

Ok I gave up on getting rivatuner to work. So I installed the new broadcom 4322 wireless drivers and that seems to have fixed it, only spikes now are green + occasional yellow from ACPI battery driver.


smile

Re: HOWTO: Low DPC latencies (<100 us) on bootcamped Macbooks (Pro)

@Bob: do you mean you get those 100us without any modifications or with? KBDMGR may not give spikes, but it can still cause dropouts (and lots of them) when using low latency audio (for example with Ableton Live).

But as long as you don't get dropouts everything is perfect. wink

Re: HOWTO: Low DPC latencies (<100 us) on bootcamped Macbooks (Pro)

Ah, so you are on an Intel Macbook. Obviously these are easier to tweak then.

The Rivatuner tweak is only necessary for OS and graphic chipsets that use dynamic clocking (which most likely the Intel graphic does not anyway). The Battery tweak most likely also depends somewhat on the chipset/battery since different people report different behavior for different laptops throughout the web. ed:

58 (edited by fl 2009-06-23 05:48:33)

Re: HOWTO: Low DPC latencies (<100 us) on bootcamped Macbooks (Pro)

I could use a little help from somebody more savvy with Windows XP than I am...

Firstly, this is all happening on a late 2006 Apple iMac, with Bootcamp, running XP SP3 with an RME Fireface 800.  (This has nothing to do with the Firewire issue - this Mac has a Texas Instruments chip.)   I'm pretty sure I must have disabled something somewhere in the last three years, because the original drivers supplied by Apple/Bootcamp for the Mac's onboard RealTek Audio hardware had some conflicts with the RME Fireface drivers.  More recent RealTek drivers have learned to play nice with the RME stuff installed, so that's less of a problem now.

Somehow, over the course of optimizing my XP install for use with the Fireface 800, I've deactivated something that allows Windows to select a Default Audio Device for its own use, even though I have deactivated the Windows Sounds (the little noises it makes for file/window opening/closing, etc.).  When I go to the Sounds and Audio Control Panel, it states that there is No Audio device present, and the options for selecting the Default device for output, input, midi, etc. are all greyed out.

Currently, my Fireface is out of town being serviced, so I can't test things more than with the default internal hardware.  I tried removing the RME drivers (with the Add/Remove Control Panel) but afterwards the Sounds and Audio CP still showed the same greyed out selection page and No Default Device.

Using ASIO4ALL, I can get my DAW software (Pyramix) to access the internal, RealTek audio hardware for playback, so I know that there is no hardware fault - I get sound out.  The RealTek Control Panel (accessed through the Taskbar) even has a demo of its so-called 3D audio simulation, and THAT plays back just fine, but somehow when I try to get any other program that is looking for the default Windows Audio device for its playback, I get nothing.  Makes Myst V End of Ages very confusing, and more seriously, Sonoris' DDP Creator software cannot play anything back since it will only output audio to the Default device.

I know this is a little off topic, and I apologize for that, but it is almost certainly the result of something that was discussed in this particular thread, as well as some other threads dealing with optimizing and running Windows for RME audio use on a Bootcamped Mac.

Any suggestions for getting my Default Audio device back?

Frank Lockwood
http://LockwoodARS.com
Fireface 800 - Firmware 2.77
Drivers: Win7, 3.125; Mac, 3.36

59 (edited by fl 2009-06-23 19:07:44)

Re: HOWTO: Low DPC latencies (<100 us) on bootcamped Macbooks (Pro)

The Bob Campbell wrote:

Have a look in Settings->Control Panel->Administrative Tools->Services. Look for Windows Audio, see if you have accidentally disabled it. It should be set to AUTOMATIC so that it starts with windows.

Funny thing - your suggestion fixed things on one of my computers - the MacBook Pro (same deal with Bootcamp and XP), but not with the iMac.  I've gone through all the Services and made sure that everything is set the same on both machines (as regards Automatic, Manual or Disabled status), but still my iMac's Sound and Audio Control Panel reports that there is no Default Audio Hardware available.

Sorry about your hardware woes as well - I guess these things aren't indestructable, but it's hard to be without it.  My TV's on the fritz as well - I might just have to go outside and enjoy summer!

That said, I am still open for suggestions as to how to enable my Default Audio Device so I can use the computer's internal hardware.

Frank Lockwood
http://LockwoodARS.com
Fireface 800 - Firmware 2.77
Drivers: Win7, 3.125; Mac, 3.36

Re: HOWTO: Low DPC latencies (<100 us) on bootcamped Macbooks (Pro)

Remove all driver via Uninstall and Device-Manager, reboot and then do a fresh installation (especially for the Realtek drivers). Use Device-Manager's option to show hidden devices in order to remove drivers that are hidden (because the corresponding device is not connected like the FF800 for instance).

61 (edited by fl 2009-06-30 18:17:46)

Re: HOWTO: Low DPC latencies (<100 us) on bootcamped Macbooks (Pro)

Timur wrote:

Remove all driver via Uninstall and Device-Manager, reboot and then do a fresh installation (especially for the Realtek drivers). Use Device-Manager's option to show hidden devices in order to remove drivers that are hidden (because the corresponding device is not connected like the FF800 for instance).

Thanks Timur.

When you say "all drivers" do you mean all sound drivers?

In my Device Manager window, with all hidden devices shown, under Sound, video and game controllers, I have:
Audio Codecs
Legacy Audio Drivers
Legacy Video Capture Devices
Media Control Devices
Realtek High Definition Audio
Video Codecs

Of all of those, the only one that offers the option to Deinstall the driver is the Realtek High Definition Audio.  I have de-installed it, rebooted, and found that Windows discovered the hardware and installed the latest drivers all on its own.  However, I still do not have the ability to select a Default Audio Device - nothing is changed.

When I look in the Device Manager for my other computer - the MacBook Pro/Bootcamp/Windows XP SP3 (same deal almost exactly) - there are a couple more drivers in there:
Microsoft Kernal System Audio Device
Microsoft WINMM WDM Audio Compatibility Driver

I'm wondering if installing these on the iMac will fix things...

Frank Lockwood
http://LockwoodARS.com
Fireface 800 - Firmware 2.77
Drivers: Win7, 3.125; Mac, 3.36

Re: HOWTO: Low DPC latencies (<100 us) on bootcamped Macbooks (Pro)

Sorry, I didn't check this thread lately.

The Realtek High Definition Audio driver was the right one. Since this didn't work try downloading the latest Realtek driver directly from Realtek's site. Watch out that you might need to run the installation twice, once for uninstalling the old driver and once for actually installing the new one.

Their download site is unbelievably slow when accessed from here, but usually you can find their drivers on Compubase and other sites, too.

http://www.realtek.com.tw/downloads/dow … Down=false

It's also possible that you didn't install the Bootcamp/Realtek driver properly to begin with. Windows will install it's own High Definition Audio driver then, but which doesn't work on the Macbooks.

Could you please provide a screenshot of your Control Panel -> Sound settings?

63

Re: HOWTO: Low DPC latencies (<100 us) on bootcamped Macbooks (Pro)

I just realized that I missed responding to Timur's last post a couple of months ago - oops sorry.

The long-story-short version is that I had sent my Fireface off for service, and found I couldn't play a game (Myst V) with sound on my iMac, because of the "No default device" issue.  Once the Fireface came home, all was well and everything behaved as it should, although my iMac still has this issue where, without the Fireface present, there is no default audio device.  This is all on XP Pro SP3 32 bit with Bootcamp 2.1 drivers, but most drivers updated from their respective manufacturers' sites - so I guess that's a "hybrid" Boot Camp 2.1 installation.

I briefly flirted with Boot Camp 3.0 when I updated my Macs to Snow Leopard, but there were DPC Latency issues similar to those encountered with 2.1's KBDMGR.EXE.  The problem is that Boot Camp 3.0 has renamed and combined many of the processes/device drivers, so KBDMGR.EXE doesn't exist following a BC 3.0 installation/upgrade.  I reverted to a cloned backup of my modified BC 2.1 setup and have been running that ever since.

Subsequent calls to Applecare informed me that they only offer limited support for people running Boot Camp (as expected, but they will support the drivers that they write), but they recommend that if you're running Snow Leopard on the Mac Side, you should be running Boot Camp 3.0 on the Windows side.  Too bad about the DPC Latency stuff..., I'm sticking with my 2.1 setup for now, until someone can show me what to tweak under 3.0 to reduce the DPC stuff to an acceptable level for audio.

Frank Lockwood
http://LockwoodARS.com
Fireface 800 - Firmware 2.77
Drivers: Win7, 3.125; Mac, 3.36

Re: HOWTO: Low DPC latencies (<100 us) on bootcamped Macbooks (Pro)

Thanks Timur for all of your work.
I have a brand new MBP and bought it to run Windows7 so I could use Software Audio Console on an upcoming tour. I got pretty nervous when the first audio I tried to play was full of crackling!
Using DPC Latency Checker I discovered that all I had to do was shutdown the bootcamp process. Running great now.

--
Nathan
www.nathanlively.com

Re: HOWTO: Low DPC latencies (<100 us) on bootcamped Macbooks (Pro)

On Macbooks (Pro) the Bootcamp 3 drivers behave the same as the 2.1 ones. So all of my advices about how to get low DPCs are still valid.

Interestingly though the BOOTCAMP.EXE does *not* cause any problems on the new Imacs even when it is the same drivers. So the combination of Macbook and driver is the culprit.

Furthermore the "Atheros" WLAN drivers on Imacs cause a spike every 60 seconds which can only be changed to every 10 minutes via device-manager. Using the driver from Microsoft Update Catalog does not help with the Atheros.

The "Broadcom" WLAN drivers for Macbook (Pro) from Microsoft Update Catalog are still the best choice even while the Bootcamp 3 ones are alot better than the older ones and seem to be more recent the the MS ones.

NVidia drivers issues for 9600M GT are still not fixed, but there are no such problems for the 9400M GT in the IMac. I had no chance to check any Macbook NON-Pro about that.

Re: HOWTO: Low DPC latencies (<100 us) on bootcamped Macbooks (Pro)

Killing the bootcamp.exe process on my 2009 MBP 13" brings DPC latency down to an average around 200?s which is enough for what I have to do (frequency measurements, sound-system setup). Everything else mentioned in this thread (deactivating network drivers) did not change anything here.
Unfortunately I can't mange to change the files in BootChamped to make them work with Bootcamp 3.0 and Bootcamp.exe. I tried to change all KBDMGR.EXE to Bootcamp.exe in those files, but they seem to do nothing. Only manually killing Bootcamp.exe with the process manager helps. Any idea, what I am doing wrong?

Ralf

Re: HOWTO: Low DPC latencies (<100 us) on bootcamped Macbooks (Pro)

bootcamp 3.1 is a huge difference in DPC latency compared to 3.0 It is down to an average of 150 ?s from 5000 ?s without any tweaking. Looking good!

Re: HOWTO: Low DPC latencies (<100 us) on bootcamped Macbooks (Pro)

I'm not as lucky... I'm running Win7 64bit and with bootcamp 3.1 (after exiting bootcamp.exe) I now have a 1500u spike every 15 seconds.

I'm guessing it's due to the new video driver. RivaTuner 2.24 will not run with the new bootcamp drivers. I can start up Rivatuner, but I get a message box in the riva software that tells me that rivatuner was not made to work with this version of the software. So, I'm guessing I'll need to roll back the video drivers to something else until rivatuner is updated.

69

Re: HOWTO: Low DPC latencies (<100 us) on bootcamped Macbooks (Pro)

IIRC the 15 second spike is due to the battery checking driver - I think it's under ACPI in the device manager

Re: HOWTO: Low DPC latencies (<100 us) on bootcamped Macbooks (Pro)

fb_,
Yep, I was just getting ready to post my correction. It is not the video driver, it is the ACPI battery driver causing the spikes. For some reason it just seems a higher spike than I remember ever 15 sec. After disabling the ACPI driver I'm seeing a max of 111us on my DPC with bootcamp.exe running and my WLAN is enabled. I'm feeling better about BC 3.1, this is looking really good.

Re: HOWTO: Low DPC latencies (<100 us) on bootcamped Macbooks (Pro)

Both the battery and the NVidia driver still cause DPC spikes. With the 9600M the NVidia driver behaves the same as before and still needs to be forced to 3D performance mode. This does *not* happen on 21.5" Imacs that only use a 9400M, so maybe it doesn't happen on Macbooks with no dedicated 9600M either.

Another nuisance is the Bluetooth driver that fails to replace the Microsoft standard one in some cases. I had to manually replace the driver with the Apple one (there are two, one named Broadcom and one just named Apple, for me only the non Broadcom one works reliably on the 17" Macbook Pro).

Re: HOWTO: Low DPC latencies (<100 us) on bootcamped Macbooks (Pro)

Sorry, I should have added I am on XP SP3 here....

Re: HOWTO: Low DPC latencies (<100 us) on bootcamped Macbooks (Pro)

where the F.... is KBDMGR.EXE on windows 7 to terminate?????

Re: HOWTO: Low DPC latencies (<100 us) on bootcamped Macbooks (Pro)

Look for bootcamp.exe
They changed the name of the executable in the new version of Bootcamp.

Re: HOWTO: Low DPC latencies (<100 us) on bootcamped Macbooks (Pro)

Two download suggestions:

1) For Fireface/Firewire users Microsoft released two hotfixes for the *non*-legacy Firewire port driver. The latest one says:

Transferred data is corrupted or the data transfer stops between an IEEE 1394 device and a computer that is running Windows 7 or Windows Server 2008 R2"

Transferred data is corrupted or the data transfer stops between an IEEE 1394 device and a computer that is running Windows 7 or Windows Server 2008 R2

2) The following tool is a good substitude for Rivatuner. It allows to switch NVidia Performance Modes without doing a reboot (including to turn on/off adaptive clock-rates to save power when you are not working on audio).

You need to run it "as Administrator" in order for it to detect and change the necessary registry keys. And you might need to have it "Create PowerMizer Settings" to first create those keys because on some setups they are not created by the NVidia driver setup.

PowerMizer Manager | Some More Bytes

PS: While the latest NVidia drivers mostly (but not necessarily completely) fix the huge DPC spikes that happen whenever clock-rates are switched they do not fix the 2D DPC issues on all hardware. My 9600M GT (bootcamped Macbook Pro) isn't fixed for example.

Re: HOWTO: Low DPC latencies (<100 us) on bootcamped Macbooks (Pro)

Experience with 9600M GT on (bootcamped) Macbook Pro 17" running Windows 7 64-bit (same as 32-bit, same as Vista):

1) Even the latest 257 Beta driver still does not solve the problem of high DPC latencies in 2D (low power) mode. DPC spikes reach well over 1500 us, which in turn can lead to audio-dropout (especially for professional audio users). Neither Performance nor Low-Power 3D modes show these problems.

The same was happening on Vista (while on XP it always ran in "Performance 3D" mode which isn't that much better a solution). I reported this via NVidia temporary "Feedback" form more than a year ago. The only "workaround" for professional audio users is to permanently force the NVidia driver to one of the 3D modes via PowerMizer Manager (recommended!) or Rivatuner.

Here is a trace of 2D mode while running Ableton Live (audio is *disabled*):

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/7403/xtrace2dtrackpad.png

In one trace run I had exorbitantly high DPC readings via DPC Latency Checker. Interestingly these turned out to be a combination of the Nvidia driver and usbport.sys while using Live's GUI (which is somewhat questionably programmed though and causing its own load of problems).

2) DPC spikes are still happening when performance modes are switched (clock-rates changed), but less than in the past.

http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/949/2ddpcs.png

3) Like the current WHQL driver with the 257 Beta the GPU is *always* running in Performance 3D mode (maximum clock-rates, heat and power-consumption) when an external display is attached. This did not happen with older version drivers.

77 (edited by Timur 2010-09-17 09:04:13)

Re: HOWTO: Low DPC latencies (<100 us) on bootcamped Macbooks (Pro)

The most current 260.63 Nvidia beta driver that was specifically said to fix DPC issues (by NVidia's ManuelG on their forum) does not help on my bootcamped Macbook Pro 17" 2009.

If you want to install it anyway you need to change all instances of "00BC106B" in the file NVAO.INF to "00B0106B". That may depend on which Macbook you are using. So first try without changing anything.

Re: HOWTO: Low DPC latencies (<100 us) on bootcamped Macbooks (Pro)

Hi

I've been trying to fix DPC Latency issues for two days now, and it's frustrating not being able to work sad
I'm running on WinXP on my Mac 24" (Core 2 Duo 3.06ghz) with my Fireface UC (latest drivers), and I'm forced to run WinXP since I been (still am) producing in emagic Logic 5.5 and all my VST's. And the funny thing is that Logic is running SUPER smooth, no glitches clicks or other latency issues! Now why is that? But when I'm running Ableton Live (8.2.8) I get these pronounced latency issues, bad programming by the Live team or what?
The reason for me using Live is collaboration work so it's really crucial for me to get it working problem free.

As seen in DPC Latency Checker Image, running Ableton, this isn't a pretty sight sad
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/9922/dpclatency.jpg

Please help me

Thanks

Re: HOWTO: Low DPC latencies (<100 us) on bootcamped Macbooks (Pro)

Does your Mac use Nvidia or ATI graphic. If NVIdia then try to turn off "Powermizer" in Nvidia's Control Panel. One thing that can help with Live is to set CPU priority to "Realtime" via Task-Manager.

Re: HOWTO: Low DPC latencies (<100 us) on bootcamped Macbooks (Pro)

Thanks for your reply Timur

I started thinkin that since I have to reduce the amount of memory [Maxmem=1024] used by the system in boot.ini when I run Logic I'd try the same for Ableton Live, but instead of limiting it to [1024] I added [Maxmem=2048] and VOILA! Sometimes it's good to use your brain wink I keep forgetting that Windows XP is really really old and doesn't like ram memory wink (at least not as much as more recent OS's).   

Well well sometimes the simplest way to fix issues are the best solutions! I hope this might help others as well big_smile



Thanks

Re: HOWTO: Low DPC latencies (<100 us) on bootcamped Macbooks (Pro)

So the DPC latencies came from pagefile swapping when the application ran out of physical memory?