1 Topic by MileExRecording (edited by MileExRecording 2016-10-18 14:36:48)

  • Registered: 2016-04-07
  • Posts: 13

Topic: [SOLVED] Fireface 800 to computer without firewire port.

Hi,

I have a Fireface 800 and a computer ThinkPad without a firewire port.  Both devices are important to me and I want to keep them, so selling one of them isn't an option.

The Fireface 800 has firewire 400 and 800 ports.
The ThinkPad has USB 3.0 and Thunderbolt 3 ports.

I don't know much about compatibility so I am wondering what is the best option.

I searched on the forum but the only threads I found were old or not quite exactly the same as my situation and I wanted an update.  Also, on the net, the adapters that I found didn't match.

Thank you very much, any help is greatly appreciated.

  • cyrano
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Re: [SOLVED] Fireface 800 to computer without firewire port.

There is no solution, as FW to USB adapters for audio don't exist...

MB Pro - 2 X FireFace 400, FF800 & DigiFace USB
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  • ramses
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Re: [SOLVED] Fireface 800 to computer without firewire port.

Are Thunderbolt to Firewire adapters only available for Apple ?

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

4 Reply by Timur Born (edited by Timur Born 2016-10-13 21:22:51)

  • Registered: 2008-01-01
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Re: [SOLVED] Fireface 800 to computer without firewire port.

The Thunderbolt to Firewire adapter from Apple does work with Windows PCs. It's a Thunderbolt 2 adapter, though. You could put a TB3-to-TB2 adapter in between them and hope for the best.

Here is someone reporting that this solution works with his Asus laptop (scroll down):

https://forums.presonus.com/viewtopic.p … 3c1dadf1ad

5 Reply by MileExRecording (edited by MileExRecording 2016-10-13 21:32:06)

  • Registered: 2016-04-07
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Re: [SOLVED] Fireface 800 to computer without firewire port.

There is no solution, as FW to USB adapters for audio don't exist...

Can somebody confirm this?  I can't believe there is no option at all, though I am starting to realized that you might be right...

Are Thunderbolt to Firewire adapters only available for Apple ?

That was also part of my questioning too. People are also confused on the multiple forums that I've visit.  Some say that such an adapter will work, but many of these people are reffering to thunderbolt 1 or 2.  Also, these people are not specifically using audio interfaces, but rather external hard-drives, monitors, etc.

The port that my computer has is thunderbolt 3 (or USB-C).

EDIT: @Timur Born: I started to write my reply before you answered.  So thanks for your input.  I did see that solution before posting here, but it seems sketchy.  I will definitly try it though, if it is my only solution.

  • Registered: 2016-04-07
  • Posts: 13

Re: [SOLVED] Fireface 800 to computer without firewire port.

Ok, so here is something new for me, in case somebody has the same situation and is following this thread:

I didn't think of that in the first place, but my computer, in addition of the previously mentioned ports, also has a slot for an express card.  I didn't know what was an express card but it seems to exist exactly for the kind of problem that I have right now.

The best solution for me would be to find an express card that gives me a firewire port 400 (or 800).

Just making a quick search on RME forum had lead me to successful users who went the same path as I did.

The problem isn't really solved for someone who doesn't have an express card slot available though.

Thanks for the help!

7 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2016-10-14 05:26:53)

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Re: [SOLVED] Fireface 800 to computer without firewire port.

There are firewire express cards on the market, but badly described which chipset they have.

Presonus has a quite detailed list of cards and their chipset.

http://support.presonus.com/hc/en-us/ar … ire-cards-

Maybe you can get a card used by eBay if it is not yet available anymore elsewhere.

I would also try tunderbolt with 2 adapters, if it works it will be much better for you.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

8 Reply by MileExRecording (edited by MileExRecording 2016-10-14 06:02:24)

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Re: [SOLVED] Fireface 800 to computer without firewire port.

I would also try tunderbolt with 2 adapters, if it works it will be much better for you.

Really?  Can you explain me why? I am ignorant regarding all this so correct me if my reasoning is wrong.

To me, having two adapters in chain seems more sketchy than having a direct firewire port from an expresscard that connect directly on the motherboard.

Also, my feeling is reinforced by the fact that multiple users on forums had trouble with adapters and when I search for that solution, nobody had the same opinion/experience.  There wasn't a concensus.
On the opposite, people seems to be using expresscards exactly for the reason that I am looking to use one.

I am going to wait for a following on this thread before ordering anything.

Thanks a lot.

EDIT: Thanks a LOT for that list from Presonus!

9 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2016-10-14 06:24:50)

  • ramses
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Re: [SOLVED] Fireface 800 to computer without firewire port.

Thunderbolt technology is very close to PCIe bus. I expect there fewer problems compared to firewire chipset implementations. As long as the 2 adapters do not hurt, try it out. Get quality adapters like usual and not too long in length to be able to exclude any potential issue by cable length. If you have the confidence that it works, then you can try to get maybe one longer cable. With USB3 the rule of thumb is 3m with a quality cable is ok. With thunderbolt I have no experience. But as you take 2 connectors I would stop at 1 - 1.5m. Start as short as possible !

With Expresscards it can become difficult. a) In my DELL the card didnt sit tight, as this was a broader slot allowing also insertion of other crap which made the expresscard not a robust option. b) could become tricky to get one with a good working TI chipset. Avoid TI XIO2200A chipset, it doesn't work very well (broken by design).

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

10 Reply by Timur Born (edited by Timur Born 2016-10-14 17:54:01)

  • Registered: 2008-01-01
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Re: [SOLVED] Fireface 800 to computer without firewire port.

If the chipset hasn't changed then this one should work:

http://www.sonnettech.com/product/fw800 … ard34.html

11 Reply by MileExRecording (edited by MileExRecording 2016-10-18 14:34:27)

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Re: [SOLVED] Fireface 800 to computer without firewire port.

Ok so here's the conclusion:

I've decided to go with the expresscard solution because since I discovered that this thing it existed, I really wanted to try it out.

I bought this:

Startech
EC13942A2
2 port ExpressCard 1394a Firewire card
https://www.startech.com/Cards-Adapters … ~EC13942A2


So far, it works well: the computer recognize it, TotalMix and the Fireface setting window are working perfectly.
I haven't try recording yet.  I will definitly keep this thread updated if anything.

Thank you all for your help.

EDIT: maybe I should add that I am working on Windows 10 and it was a little bit more difficult to actually find an expresscard that is officially working with Windows 10.  Most manufacturers said that their card should be working with Windows 10 but they haven't really try it out.

  • Registered: 2008-03-16
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Re: [SOLVED] Fireface 800 to computer without firewire port.

To get Firewire on my notebook I will use an ExpressCard too instead of Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt to Firewire solution. Cause of a comment of an official RME supporter:

MC wrote:

The above described solution with USB-C to TB to FW does not work on my computer anymore. Well, it does, but after 20 seconds playback Windows crashes with BSOD. We will check if that can be fixed within our FW driver, but I have no high hopes.

source: https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopi … 03#p115303

13 Reply by MileExRecording (edited by MileExRecording 2016-10-28 21:16:27)

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Re: [SOLVED] Fireface 800 to computer without firewire port.

Yes, good idea.  I am very glad I went with the ExpressCard solution.

The search for quality information was harder than I thought.  A lot of people are saying opposite things and no one seems really certain.  Some have success with adapters, some don't.  Also, nobody have exactly the same setup so it brings up more incertitude.

Since my last post, I tried recording with it and it works.  It works regarding connectivity: the Fireface 800 is detected by the ThinkPad and I used Sonar (my main DAW) to record some tests tracks.



But now, since my first test recordings, I have a new problem which is the "lag" between an audio signal that is coming through the Fireface, processed by Sonar and back through the Fireface's output.  I really hope this has nothing to do with the ExpressCard.  I don't know if this lag is normal, and if not, what causes it and how can I reduce the lag to its minimum.

So many questions answered so far, so many more to come.

  • Registered: 2008-03-16
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Re: [SOLVED] Fireface 800 to computer without firewire port.

Which ExpressCard do you use, what chipset?

I just bought a new thinkpad, and collected some optimization tips for audio production which I will do. Maye you/others will benefit too:

PC Optimization Guide for Windows Vista/Windows 7
http://support.presonus.com/hc/en-us/articles/210046153

Windows 7 power-profile
http://support.presonus.com/hc/en-us/ar … Studio-One
+ related

optimization for P70 graphiccard /  nVidia control panel:
https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopi … 28#p113828
    If someone still has issues with what appears to be graphics-related instability, try the following:
    Open the nVidia control panel, go to "Manage 3D Settings", and then to "Program Settings".
    For any program that you use that uses ASIO (including standalone plugins like Guitar Rig, iZotope RX, and so on), apply the following:
    -Anisotropic Filtering: Off
    -Antialiasing Gamma Correction: Off
    -Antialiasing Mode: Off
    -Power Management Mode (if applicable): Prefer Consistent Performance
    -Multi-Display/Mixed GPU Acceleration: Single Display Performance Mode (Multiple monitors still work fine in this mode)
    -Shader Cache: Off
    -Threaded Optimization: Off
    -Vertical Sync: Off
    This seems to make a big difference. Also, it might go without saying, but if your laptop/computer supports nVidia Optimus GPU switching, disable that and switch to GPU only. Optimus is generally awful, and GPU-only-mode can (if need be) free up a little bit of CPU for audio processing too.
see also
    https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopi … 12#p107012
    Using the Intel HD Graphics alone leads to audio drops when doing simply music playbac even if using ASIO driver (music bee). Audio starts to drop if you scroll webpages with graphic content up and down a little with mouse wheel. You can fix this issue by configuring the extra nvidia gpu to execute/render firefox. This saves you raising the ASIO buffer size from 48 to 256 (!). So do not rely on the Intel HD graphics alone.

15 Reply by Timur Born (edited by Timur Born 2016-10-28 22:09:25)

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Re: [SOLVED] Fireface 800 to computer without firewire port.

Unless they changed (years since I checked) it that Presonus power profile will disable *all* power-saving features, including the simplest HALT command that does the most basic power saving at no penalty. This in turn will run your laptop CPU at 100% all the time, which skyrockets temperature and fan speed.

Rather check your BIOS for any C3 and C5/7 options. I recommend to turn off C5/7 if possible, but often you can leave C3 on. Disabling C1E might help. If your BIOS does not support this you can download a software called ThrottleStop and try to disable it there.

  • Registered: 2016-04-07
  • Posts: 13

Re: [SOLVED] Fireface 800 to computer without firewire port.

Thank you both of you for your interest in helping me and all your information.

@Idiocratic

Here is what I bought:
https://www.startech.com/Cards-Adapters … ~EC13942A2
It says that the chipset ID is: VIA - VT6315

Your point about getting the ThinkPad optimized for audio production is good.  I'm sure I can make a few change here and there in Windows 10 and in Sonar as well.

Regarding the other stuff, I don't think it's relevant for me: I don't have any GPU related bugs.  The "lag" that I described, was in the audio signal, just like when you mess with the buffer size.  And the guide that you linked didn't really point out my problem.  I don't have any noise, pop, clicks or audio drop, but just a big processing delay time.

@Timur Born
I have no idea what you're talking about.  I'm really going to have to search for all this C3, C5/7 stuff as I barely know what the BIOS is.  Thank you though, I appreciate the help, always.

___

Since I think my new latency/lag problem is not related to the ExpressCard and that this new investigation will lead me to some other questions and discussions, I will probably start a new thread if necessary because it's going to become more and more off-topic here.

  • ramses
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Re: [SOLVED] Fireface 800 to computer without firewire port.

He talks about CPU sleep states to save energy. It takes time to wakeup after sleep.
This lag is the higher the deeper the sleep state is.


C-State    Funktion    Latency until back to 100% performance
C0    Full Power
C1    Halt    ~ 10 ns
C1E    Erweiterter Halt < 10 ns
C2    Stopp ~ 100ns
C2E    Erweiterter Stopp > 100ns
C3    Schlaf / Tiefschlaf ~ 50µs
C4    Tieferer Schlaf    ~ 150µs
C4E/C5 Erweiterter Tieferer Schlaf ~ 250µs
C6    Spannungsabschaltung        > 250µs

C3 is already severe as it runs in the µs area ....
I would disable Sleepstate >= C2 or at least sl.state >= C3.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13