Topic: RME AIO midi real-time latency in CUBASE 9 PRO

Hi!
I just purchased the RME AIO pcie card. I read a lot of great review on it how it helps with real-time latency and so on, but once I installed it and hook it all up, I get the same or even worse latency results that I had with my firewire focusrite saffire pro 26 interface.

I work in cubase 9 pro with a huge orchestral template with about 700-800 instruments/articulations that come from a slave pc which runs a Vienna Ensemble pro 6 server. My latency buffer is set to 1024 samples which ends up in a 12 ms input and output latency. I have an Arturia keylab 66 midi controller which by itself has about a 0.7 ms latency. Now as you can imagine latency like that makes it super hard to play and record in real-time.

I read somewhere on this forum a while ago when I was shopping for this pcie card that even with 1024-2048 samples latency in hammerfal asio there is some kind of setting to make midi notes come in real-time with 0 latency. I have the DirectMidi option enabled in settings but that doesn't do much. I can't find that thread where i read it now unfortunately.

I know i must be missing some setting in asio control panel or in totalmix but cant find it on my own. If you know how to fix it or a workaround please share I will really appreciate it:)


PS My main PC rig is this: i7 6960x 10-core running at 4.4GHz, all SSD drives, 64GB DDR memory,  RX480 8 gb video card, 1000w EVGA PSU, no internet connection and just DAWs and vsti pluggins on this PC, nothing else clogging up the memory and cpu usage, all unnecessary background services are turned off.

www.soundcloud.com/timblast
MASTER: i7 6960x, 64GB DDR4, RX480 GPU
SLAVE: i7Xeon 20cores, 128GB DDR4

2 (edited by vinark 2017-05-31 09:14:42)

Re: RME AIO midi real-time latency in CUBASE 9 PRO

There is no way around it, for lower latency the buffers must be smaller. If you also play the VEP slave, it's latency must be low too. Of course I don't know your machines, but here I can run at very low latencies. Most of the time at 64 and 128 in very busy projects. I don't use VEP slaves much but they can run at 1 buffer setting, when I was testing. My machine is nowhere as fast as yours! A simple core2 quad from maybe 6 years ago.
Running at low latencies where other brands fail is RME's forte! Just set your VEP at one buffer and start lowering the AIOs latency!

Edit, I just saw your machines specs and you should be able to run even at 64!

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
HDSP9652+ADI-8AE  2X HDSP9632
Cubase pro10

Re: RME AIO midi real-time latency in CUBASE 9 PRO

Hi Vinark!
Thanks for your response.

Yes I know I should be able to run lower latencies but if even when i lower it to 512 samples i get crackling and cpu peaks in cubase (note that when i check the actual cpu usage in the task manager its at 7-12 %).

My Ve Pro is set to 1 buffer. So i am not sure if its Cubase thats acting up or I need to change some kind of Windows settings.

Here is a bit more info about my template. So as i said before i got all midi tracks (about 800 of them) with 40 Vienna Pros loaded up in Cubase "instrument rack". In Cubase Device Settings i got audio priority set to boost, hyperthreading set to on, asio guard is off.  I got 15 group channel busses (strings, brass, percussion and so on) and they all feed to a pre-mixdown bus with a few limiters and slight compression and eq. That premixdown bus goes to stereo out with just 1 Ozone 7 mastering plugin. I think with the computer i ve got i should be able to run that with no problems at 64 samples but there is something missing lol

Do u work in Cubase as well?

www.soundcloud.com/timblast
MASTER: i7 6960x, 64GB DDR4, RX480 GPU
SLAVE: i7Xeon 20cores, 128GB DDR4

Re: RME AIO midi real-time latency in CUBASE 9 PRO

Please also check if ticking MMCSS to on in the RME driver (last tab) improves performance allowing lower latency.

Madiface XT, Madiface, 3x Micstasy, ADI8QS
Sequoia 15,  W10 x64, W7 x64

Re: RME AIO midi real-time latency in CUBASE 9 PRO

TimBlast wrote:

Hi Vinark!
Thanks for your response.

Yes I know I should be able to run lower latencies but if even when i lower it to 512 samples i get crackling and cpu peaks in cubase (note that when i check the actual cpu usage in the task manager its at 7-12 %).

My Ve Pro is set to 1 buffer. So i am not sure if its Cubase thats acting up or I need to change some kind of Windows settings.

Here is a bit more info about my template. So as i said before i got all midi tracks (about 800 of them) with 40 Vienna Pros loaded up in Cubase "instrument rack". In Cubase Device Settings i got audio priority set to boost, hyperthreading set to on, asio guard is off.  I got 15 group channel busses (strings, brass, percussion and so on) and they all feed to a pre-mixdown bus with a few limiters and slight compression and eq. That premixdown bus goes to stereo out with just 1 Ozone 7 mastering plugin. I think with the computer i ve got i should be able to run that with no problems at 64 samples but there is something missing lol

Do u work in Cubase as well?

Yes Cubase as well smile Steinberg issued a warning for win10 users about anything above 14 virtual cores causing issues. Are you on Win10? If yes does disabling HT fix anything? And also try without Ozone. I don't know about this one, but mastering plugs are notorious for causing latency and not liking small buffers. My UAD multiband has a latency of almost one second....

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
HDSP9652+ADI-8AE  2X HDSP9632
Cubase pro10

Re: RME AIO midi real-time latency in CUBASE 9 PRO

Just tried turning the mmcss on in rme driver. Unfortunately it didnt improve permormance.

Yes i am on windows 10. I will try disabling ht next, will post results tonight;)

www.soundcloud.com/timblast
MASTER: i7 6960x, 64GB DDR4, RX480 GPU
SLAVE: i7Xeon 20cores, 128GB DDR4

7 (edited by vinark 2017-05-31 21:47:57)

Re: RME AIO midi real-time latency in CUBASE 9 PRO

Read this https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewto … p;t=117319
If this is your problem, meaning disabling HT helps, do consider win7 (my choice) or 8.1.
I will read your reply tomorrow. Of to bed here wink

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
HDSP9652+ADI-8AE  2X HDSP9632
Cubase pro10

Re: RME AIO midi real-time latency in CUBASE 9 PRO

UPDATE:

I disabled the Hyperthreading in BIOS nad it did improve the overall vst-performance in cubase. SO WE ARE GETTING CLOSER HERE smile

Now i can lower latency in rme driver to 512 samples without any dropouts. Tried 256 and 128 but will get crackling and dropouts when there is a whole lot of midi tracks playing at the same time (whole lot is about 60-70 at the same time, when its just 20-25 its all good).

Also tried removing the mastering Ozone plug from the stereo output track, but to be honest I didn't feel that it made much difference.

So now i feel that the bottleneck might be that I have 40 instances of VE PRO loaded up in the "instruments rack" in Cubase and of course in VE PRO server on my SLAVE. I am pretty sure when working in CUBASE you are only allowed to have 16 midi track per each rack VSTI instrument.... so i have 40x16which 640 midi tracks.... now I wonder i am wrong about this... Is is possible to have the same 640 midi tracks coming from the VE PRO server to be held on less amount of instances? I read somewhere that you can have up to 16 kontakt instances with 16 instruments loaded in each on 1 INSTANCE of VE PRO. (instanception pun here lol), but as many time I tried to do that I just end up with 16 midi track limit from each instrument loaded in the rack in Cubase.

www.soundcloud.com/timblast
MASTER: i7 6960x, 64GB DDR4, RX480 GPU
SLAVE: i7Xeon 20cores, 128GB DDR4

Re: RME AIO midi real-time latency in CUBASE 9 PRO

You have to use the vst3 version of VEP.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
HDSP9652+ADI-8AE  2X HDSP9632
Cubase pro10

Re: RME AIO midi real-time latency in CUBASE 9 PRO

Yep I am using Vst3 version of ve pro. But still i dont know how to have more than 16 midi tracks per vsti instrument

www.soundcloud.com/timblast
MASTER: i7 6960x, 64GB DDR4, RX480 GPU
SLAVE: i7Xeon 20cores, 128GB DDR4

Re: RME AIO midi real-time latency in CUBASE 9 PRO

ok i figured it out..... the midi ports each have 16 channels.... and in VE PRO instance on VE PRO server there is this little box on the left next to "kontakt" that by default says all/all. First variable is for which port to use, and second is for how many channels per that port... how didnt I see it earlier when i was making the template... So yeah its possible, but now i gotta rework the whole template to see if that helps with the latency.
Will post an update in a few days from now

www.soundcloud.com/timblast
MASTER: i7 6960x, 64GB DDR4, RX480 GPU
SLAVE: i7Xeon 20cores, 128GB DDR4

Re: RME AIO midi real-time latency in CUBASE 9 PRO

Are you sure the slave can handle the processing? It is a different machine yes? For me it is just as easy to overload the main as the slave machine.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
HDSP9652+ADI-8AE  2X HDSP9632
Cubase pro10

Re: RME AIO midi real-time latency in CUBASE 9 PRO

well the slave already handles the 40 instances with no problem so i would imagine it will do fine with 4 instances holding 160 midi chanels each.

My Slave specs: double i7 XEON total of 20 cores (40 threads), 128 DDR4 ram, all sdds, TITANX 6gb video card. High performance serverboard

www.soundcloud.com/timblast
MASTER: i7 6960x, 64GB DDR4, RX480 GPU
SLAVE: i7Xeon 20cores, 128GB DDR4

Re: RME AIO midi real-time latency in CUBASE 9 PRO

UPDATE:

Just messed with my template so I only have 4 instances of VE Pro instead of 40 of them.... but still cant go lower than 512 samples latency.

Any other recommendations? I wish there would be just one complete post or a video that goes about how to set it all up

www.soundcloud.com/timblast
MASTER: i7 6960x, 64GB DDR4, RX480 GPU
SLAVE: i7Xeon 20cores, 128GB DDR4

15 (edited by ramses 2017-06-05 10:57:13)

Re: RME AIO midi real-time latency in CUBASE 9 PRO

What OS do you use ? Did you optimize the PC ?
If you want to reduce the ASIO Buffersize, then you need to ensure that the CPU is not busy with other stuff
and that drivers and other process do not block the cores where audio processes run on.
Did you disable EIST, Turbo Boost, use C0/C1 (block enegy saving states).

See this article and which latencies the different energy saving states cause
http://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/inde … -X10SRi-F/

Under Win7 I got it managed on an idle system to reach
kernel time latencies down to 1.75us and on average <20us.

This kernel timer latency is only measurable under Win7 with LatencyMon.
Best take the old version 4.02 which has no changes for Win8 and Win10 inside, if you run Win7.
Here the old version of that tool:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/imcbu6lcac5vg … 2.exe?dl=1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9h6uoqgcaqqvd … e.md5?dl=1

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, Win10 Pro 1909, Cubase, UFX+, Octamic XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS BE/R BE, RayDAT, ARC USB

Re: RME AIO midi real-time latency in CUBASE 9 PRO

Hi!

I am on Windows 10. Yes I have all the C states turned off, hyperthreading turned off, EIST off. I am overclocking the cpu from 3ghz to 4.4ghz so I cant turn off the Intel Turbo Boost. (I tried but it goes back to 3ghz and it drops the performance by a very noticable amount).

Just ran Latencymon. Average latency was 1.79 us and highest latency was 68.28 us. Here is a screenshot:

http://i63.tinypic.com/14iijw4.png

Also downloaded the cpu parking tool from the link you sent me. Still not sure how it works:) did you use it to decrease latency?

www.soundcloud.com/timblast
MASTER: i7 6960x, 64GB DDR4, RX480 GPU
SLAVE: i7Xeon 20cores, 128GB DDR4

Re: RME AIO midi real-time latency in CUBASE 9 PRO

I just ran the latencymon with the kernel timer latency option and it  stayed at constant 11633us latency... is that a problem on win10? although it says that my system is ready for audio without dropouts

www.soundcloud.com/timblast
MASTER: i7 6960x, 64GB DDR4, RX480 GPU
SLAVE: i7Xeon 20cores, 128GB DDR4

Re: RME AIO midi real-time latency in CUBASE 9 PRO

I also get very bad hard pagefaults readings... 663712us is the highest coming from runtimebroker.exe maybe that might be an issue. I will try posting on the latencymon official forum and see if I can get help there.

www.soundcloud.com/timblast
MASTER: i7 6960x, 64GB DDR4, RX480 GPU
SLAVE: i7Xeon 20cores, 128GB DDR4

Re: RME AIO midi real-time latency in CUBASE 9 PRO

Here are screenshots from latency mon:

http://imgur.com/a/p9Dbe

http://imgur.com/a/zmRyP

I read somewhere that latencymon doesnt show the right numbers for the kernel timer latency on windows 10, but I might be wrong.

It seems that the hard pagefaults are coming from svchost and dll host now (i disabled the runtimebroker.exe from services).

Any recommendation on how to fix that? Please let me know if I can provide with more screenshots of other components/menus

www.soundcloud.com/timblast
MASTER: i7 6960x, 64GB DDR4, RX480 GPU
SLAVE: i7Xeon 20cores, 128GB DDR4

Re: RME AIO midi real-time latency in CUBASE 9 PRO

TimBlast wrote:

Hi!

I am on Windows 10. Yes I have all the C states turned off, hyperthreading turned off, EIST off. I am overclocking the cpu from 3ghz to 4.4ghz so I cant turn off the Intel Turbo Boost. (I tried but it goes back to 3ghz and it drops the performance by a very noticable amount).

Just ran Latencymon. Average latency was 1.79 us and highest latency was 68.28 us. Here is a screenshot:

http://i63.tinypic.com/14iijw4.png

Also downloaded the cpu parking tool from the link you sent me. Still not sure how it works:) did you use it to decrease latency?

At least on Win7, most likely on 10, Windows parks CPU cores, which needs time to wake up cores again.
On the other hand a certain amount of cores need to be parked otherwise some of the cores cant reach full turbo speed.
On the other hand No, 2: also turbo speed changes the clock of the CPU, which also takes time.
So .. I think what you did is in total the best. Although I am not a fan of overclocking.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, Win10 Pro 1909, Cubase, UFX+, Octamic XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS BE/R BE, RayDAT, ARC USB

Re: RME AIO midi real-time latency in CUBASE 9 PRO

TimBlast wrote:

Here are screenshots from latency mon:

http://imgur.com/a/p9Dbe

http://imgur.com/a/zmRyP

I read somewhere that latencymon doesnt show the right numbers for the kernel timer latency on windows 10, but I might be wrong.

It seems that the hard pagefaults are coming from svchost and dll host now (i disabled the runtimebroker.exe from services).

Any recommendation on how to fix that? Please let me know if I can provide with more screenshots of other components/menus

For Win10 the measuring changed because of Windows changes.
I have no experience and comparison with Win10, sorry.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, Win10 Pro 1909, Cubase, UFX+, Octamic XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS BE/R BE, RayDAT, ARC USB

Re: RME AIO midi real-time latency in CUBASE 9 PRO

UPDATE:

Thanks guys for the help.

I was able to improve the performance. Now I can go down to 256 samples latency in a super heavy all audio tracks project with a whole lot of vsts and two ozone mastering plugins. And I can go to 256 samples latency on my orchestral template with 640 midi track and 640 output tracks for those with a mastering plugin on stereo out track.

What helped eventually:

So I followed your advices one by one: turned off the hyperthreading, turned off the Speedstep and C States in Bios. Turned off a whole lot of useless background services (printer, fax, telephone, smart card, and etc), turned off the windows defender and the firewall (since the master pc doesnt have an internet connection, there is nothing to defending from). I updated the network and gpu drivers. Also turned of the cpu parking thru the regedit ( I found a youtube video on how to do it and it worked). And now it runs almost perfect haha but still a great improvement from barely pulling on 1024 samples latency to 256 and no crack no pops, vst performance in cubase is at 20-30 with rare random peaks at heavy loaded parts.

Now, something I forgot to mention in this thread is that I 2 reverbs running in the orchestral midi project. 1 is the Vienna Mir Pro that creates realististic placement for instrument sections (violins, vilos, basses, trombones and etc) and the second is AltiVerb 7 that i have set up as an fx send to group busses. Should I try and move those to my slave pc as now i have only instances of ve pro and i can fit the Vienna Mir in there and use one instance of alti verb per instance as a send fx. Do you guys think that will help me reduce the latency buffer to at least 128 on my master daw pc?

www.soundcloud.com/timblast
MASTER: i7 6960x, 64GB DDR4, RX480 GPU
SLAVE: i7Xeon 20cores, 128GB DDR4

Re: RME AIO midi real-time latency in CUBASE 9 PRO

ANOTHER UPDATE:

So after i saved my project and decided to restart both slave and main PCs, after I loaded them up again for some reason now I get no sound when I set the latency buffer to 256 and 128 samples.... I get flawless performance at 512 and 1024, but when I change it to 256 or 128 i get no sound and the vst performance meter in cubase just stays at zero ( as well as cpu usage goes down to 2-3% from the usual 18-30%). Restarted the computers again and still same problem.

It lets me go to 64 and 32 samples buffer with sound, but the vst performance peaks and I get impossible to work with crackling and dropouts.

Any help? Isn't it weird.

www.soundcloud.com/timblast
MASTER: i7 6960x, 64GB DDR4, RX480 GPU
SLAVE: i7Xeon 20cores, 128GB DDR4