Topic: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

Hello.
Im having an issue with my Multiface similar to this:
http://www.rme-audio.de/forum/viewtopic.php?id=1454

Basically, it seems to be picking up noise / interference from the Mac, specifically the video card(?)

the symptoms are, when all inputs are at zero, if i turn the mixer monitor level right up, i hear noise, and that noise is effected by whats displaying on my Mac's monitor. example, if i scroll or move a window around the computer, it makes more noise..

Ive had similar problems like this before and (if i remember correctly) i solved it once by simply plugging the Multiface power in..

but the power is plugged in now.. so im lost and need help!

MacPro Intel Quad
OSX 10.6.7
Hammerfall DSP v 1.73

No noise comes out of the MultiFace's headphone output
I can stop the noise by unplugging the Firewire cable from the Mac CardBus slot..

Please help me solve this.
Thank you!

Re: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

More info -> When i use another audio card, a Native Instruments Audio 8, I do not get any of the Monitor interference Noise..
So, Connecting to the Audio 8 via USB, then the outputs going into my Allen & Heath Mixwizard Mixer which connects to my monitors. No noise in that scenario.
thanks.

Re: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

Even more -> Simply connecting the RME Multiface via Firefire, to the CardBus PCI Slot on the back of the Mac introduces this Video Noise interference into my setup here, So The RME is only plugged into the Mac. no audio cables connect the RME to the Mixer.

Re: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

Does anyone care?

Re: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

What is a "CardBus PCI Slot on the back of the Mac"? Mind that you can not connect the MF to Firewire.
The whole thing does appear to be some kind of ground loop issue...

ssgrfk wrote:

Does anyone care?

On weekends and public holidays, reaction may be slower....


Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Re: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

the card is the 'RME HDSP System' PCI card thing that I've installed in the Mac. It sits the pci slot, 2nd from the top.

I've read a lot about Ground Loops, I'm far from an expert on this, I've tried a lot of what has been suggested and have had no luck with it.
Is it not interesting that the Video card noise doesn't occur when using the other interface?

Do you have any links to information with good instructions on troubleshooting this issue?
thanks,

Re: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

If you can also try another firewire cable. If the shielding of this one is not ok, this could cause it.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
Babyface pro fs, HDSP9652+ADI-8AE, HDSP9632

Re: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

Hi. thanks for responding. I've tried 3 cables so far. no change.

Re: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

Update. So if i plug the Outputs of the Multiface into a handheld battery powered recorder, the interference noise is gone.. so this means the Multiface is not causing the noise.. so is this the definition of a 'Ground Loop' ?

If i disconnect everything except the Mac, Multiface & Powered Mixer, no other devices either powered up or audio cables plugged into anything, I can hear the noise..  The Mac & RME are on one powerboard, the Mixer on another. The Noise is there.. same as before. I've tried this also with a different mixer.. plugged into a different power source..

Any advice is appreciated.
tahnsk

10 (edited by justindouglas 2011-07-18 23:25:04)

Re: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

I've had this same problem with my 3 RME Multifaces II's for years now (I'm on a PC).

It appears that any internal working by the computer (processing noise, movements on the screen, etc) causes noise to come out the Multifaces. Both the inputs and the outputs. Today I was transferring from a 2" tape machine into Nuendo, so the outputs of the 2" (which I was monitoring) were plugged into the inputs of the Multifaces. Just connecting the inputs of the Multifaces to my listening environment brought that same noise.

I've tried everything:

- computer and mixer on different circuits
- computer and mixer on the same circuit
- every combination of ground lifting computer and/or mixer
- ebtech Hum-X
- different monitoring boards (Trident, Mackie, Soundcraft, Roland, A&H)
- different computer monitors
- moving studios (I've had the same setup in 2 separate locations with the same result)
- changed computers (had a new computer built last year)

Absolutely nothing has worked and I haven't seen this problem resolved anywhere despite numerous people reporting the same issue. My clients complain and it makes me look unprofessional. Has anyone figured it out yet? I've either got to fix it or get new converters at this point.

Thanks and good luck!

Re: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

One thing you could try and I have no idea if it will help, is to use a "special" firewire cable. Buy a firewircable with on one side a small firewire plug (for mobile devices) plus an adapter from small to normal. The small firewire plug does not carry power so effectively you now have a powerless firewire cable. If the noise is comming through the power line, which is a real possibility, this will eliminate it. You do need your power adapter for your multiface of course.

Also if you are on a pc, don´t forget to turn of cpu power saving options like C1E enhanced and C3 in the bios. This would also help on a mac if you could do it, but apple doesn´t give the option.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
Babyface pro fs, HDSP9652+ADI-8AE, HDSP9632

Re: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

Not sure the cable adapter idea will work here, pinout might be different... MC might chime in to clarify.

Do you hear noise with nothing but headphones connected to the MF?


Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Re: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

Sorry forgot about that! Is it something they can try anyway? It is most logical if the same core is used for power.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
Babyface pro fs, HDSP9652+ADI-8AE, HDSP9632

Re: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

Do you hear noise with nothing but headphones connected to the MF?

I'll have to check - I never use headphones with the Multiface. Almost every other post I've read on this states that they don't hear the noise out the Multiface headphones, but I'll check tomorrow.

I bought a power supply and tried that remedy to no avail yesterday.

However I noticed that with only Multiface #1 plugged into my console, when I unplugged the firewire from Multifaces #2 and #3, the noise decreased somewhat, whatever that tells you.

It doesn't appear to have anything to do with my computer monitor - I unplugged it's power and the noise remained.
Thanks

Re: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

Yes, I can hear all the noise through the headphone jacks.

Re: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

HI Justin,
Make sure there is nothing plugged into the inputs and outputs of the Multiface and it is not in contact with any metal surfaces.
Plug in some headphones and see if you get any noise without any I/O connected. There is most likely a grounding difference between the Multiface and one of you pieces of gear that are hooked into it. If there is no noise like when it was plugged into the Battery powered mixer then I would add one device at a time to the Multiface until then noise returns. Once you have found that device then you just need to sort out the best and safest way to correct the grounding between them.
Thanks Chris

Chris Ludwig | ADK Pro Audio
www.adkproaudio.com
https://www.facebook.com/adkmg

Re: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

Thanks Chris,

I'll give that a shot, but the issue is that this has been the case with every piece of gear attached in various locations. If it was isolated to, say, my Trident console or my monitor board, that'd be one thing, but it happens through any monitoring situation with any computer and any power source.

Re: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

I bought an ebtech hum eliminator (2 channel) and it works flawlessly to remove the noise. i hate the idea of buying 48 channels of transformers, but it's an easy fix

Re: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

I think I read through all of the attempts to fix this issue.

Is your computer (DAW) plugged into a UPS?
Nothing is plugged into a "surge" protector or directly into a wall outlet, correct?

If someone is building your DAWs for you ask them what kind of PSU's (power supply) they installed -  get the make and model. (this will not help the mac person).

Thanks!

Re: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

I've had 2 different computers and 3 different power supplies.
My current computer has an Antec Earthwatts, 500 or 600 watts or something.

Today I plugged PC, monitor board, and computer monitor into the same outlet. Same problem
, no change. I tried surge protectors, Furman power conditioners and straight into the wall, no difference. With all these variables I cam only assume it's an RME issue.
Other cheaper converters don't have this problem.

I'm at the point where I either have to buy 1:1 transformers for every input and output or buy new converters. Neither options is appealing.

21

Re: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

justindouglas wrote:

I bought an ebtech hum eliminator (2 channel) and it works flawlessly to remove the noise. i hate the idea of buying 48 channels of transformers, but it's an easy fix

This just proves that you have a 'simple' ground loop problem. Before buying so many workarounds you might consider to have a technician examine the situation in your studio to find a better solution.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

What sort of technician? My computer tech, audio tech, electrician?
As this issue occurs in every possible variable (different studio, PC, power sources, mixer, etc) it appears to be an issue with the Multifaces or PCI cards.
Especially as it doesn't occur with different converters.

Re: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

Has there been a fix with the above problem ?
Has anybody found a solution ?

I have the same issue with my multifaceI, connected with
the hdpse pci adapter and my computer.
This problem occurs only with my rme card (motu ultralite mk3 works fine)

The noise stops if i disconect the firewire cable (i've been through a number of them, my latest one being a unibrain )
I've changed possition of the card (away from the graphic card ) but again no solution.

Re: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

Nope. I've tried every option I can think, consulted DAW builders and electricians. With no direction from RME I'm looking into other converters.

Re: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

Hi,
I'm having the exact same problem that anybody else, it looks.
Multiface II with pci-e card. Windows 7 x64.
However, what I think is a bit odd, is that the noise occur specifically when ASIO is active.

For instance (I use Ableton Live), when I use the WDM driver there is no noise, but as soon as I switch the driver to ASIO (who would use WDM for music anyway?), there is background hum, and awesomely bothering noises when I move any window on screen, or even just move my mouse jog (it doesn't move anything on the screen).

I also noticed that it did happen at the same level when playing video games. But it never happens when I play music with VLC for instance. The noise is there even if the faders are at -inf in totalmix.
Sometimes the volume will change, according to the weather or the position of the stars I think. Some days it will be loud and other days not. Couldn't isolate any factor.
Finally, I have some doubt about the ground loop thing : the pitch of one of the main noises changes when sample rate of the multiface changes.

Thanks for all.

Re: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

Did you try another cable and did you try an external power suply?

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
Babyface pro fs, HDSP9652+ADI-8AE, HDSP9632

Re: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

All RME has told me is that it's a 'simple ground loop'. But not simple enough to tell me how to fix it.

I have officially tried everything at this point:

- lifting various grounds
- eBtech hum-x
- different power supplies
- different computers
- different buildings
- different circuit breakers
- different consoles, cables, patch bays, etc
- Granite Digital FireVue 1394 cable
- tape over FireWire pin1 and using external power supply for converter
- 1:1 audio transformers

The only thing that has made any difference is the last one - 1:1 transformer hum eliminates in the audio circuit.

I'm not about to buy 48 channels of that, so the multifaces have to go.
I give up.

Re: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

Hey was somebody able to find a fix? That noise is not good. The silence from support is not good too...

Re: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

There is no general issue and hence no "fix" that will work in every such case. Ground loops are an issue of the individual setup.


Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Re: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

RME Support wrote:

There is no general issue and hence no "fix" that will work in every such case. Ground loops are an issue of the individual setup.


Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Daniel,
With all due respect, i disagree...there IS a general issue...I might as well be "Jason" from the above posts...original owner on Multiface 1....same issue...same troubleshooting. Contacted you and posted on the forums since 09.. Same variety of connects and disconnects. Same tireless troubleshooting. Same isolation.  Same noise. Same client frowns and comments on that maddening noise (changes when mousing or resizing windows on screen)...
Its saddening and to hear of all the users of such a great product having this same issue.  I spent  $1000.00 US on this product when it came out...
Im about to pick up a used Multiface 1 on craigslist to see if it will solve the issue.. my M audio 1814 does NOt do this (in the same configuration). Neither a presonus 2 in 2 out firewire unit.

However. I WiLL try removing pci card and shielding where it connects to the chassis of the PC case...I WiLl try a "Special" firewire cable.

Thoughts? Suggestions? any Multiface II users experiencing this problem?

Sigh.

Phly23

Re: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

Hi, I have a very similar problem to the above.

I am using a Multiface II and a Quad 303 Amp. I thought that the amp was faulty, so had it serviced by an excellent technician. The amp sounds perfect with any other input. Likewise, the multiface sounds fine with two other amps I've tested it with, and fine through the headphone output.

But, Multiface + Quad amp and I get the noise issues described above. The noise appears, as above, when I plug in the FW cable, regardless of whether the computer is turned on. In fact some noise is apparent even if the computer is unplugged. Plug in the computer, the noise gets worse. Turn on the computer, worse still. I've tested it with two difference computers and with both a PCMCIA card and a PCI card, same in all cases.

Please offer some advice. If it's a ground issue, what do I do to resolve it?? And, can it be a ground issue if it happens without the computer or multiface even being plugged in??

Thanks in advance for any assistance. This is starting to drive me mad now. I've not been able to record for weeks!!

Re: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

I too have issues related to my multiface2 and noise from my mac being passed on to my monitors, console etc.

I get digital chatter and noise with mouse movement via my RME interface.

If I plug a psu Wall wart into the multiface the digital interference Is gone..  Brilliant except it is replaced by a really loud ground hum..

Do I need to buy a particular RME approved or branded psu?

I need this noise issue sorted, same as others if I use motu or another interface I have NO problem..  But I love my RME and Totalmix software so don't want to abandon RME.

Any ideas to eliminate ground hum when using psu?

Daniel? Anyone?

Thanx.

Re: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

I also have this problem.

It definately related to the graphics card updates and can become unworkable in certain situations, like making a video game on PC where graphics resources are high and ineference to audio is audible.

34

Re: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

Same issue here, has been for years. Multiface II with i7 PC (built with high quality components).

I have noticed the problem it is made much worse when unbalanced gear is connected to the multifaceII. I cannot justify buying DIs for all the unbalanced gear though. Is there a way to alter an audio lead, for connecting to unbalanced gear? I did  find this one mention of issues in the multifaceII manual: "When using unbalanced cables with TRS jacks: be sure to connect the 'ring' contact of the TRS jack with ground. Otherwise noise may occur, caused by the unconnected negative input of the balanced input".

I would really appreciate some help if anyone solved this? Or did you all just get different interfaces?

Re: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

Still the same crap... I'm about to finally ditch the RME and NEVER go back it would seem...

I'm back online searching for an answer to this same old issue again and stumbled across this old thread which I contributed to last time I couldn't take it anymore..

Real shame because on the whole I love my RME products and I like total mix...

I feel disappointed to be looking for an alternative...

Once I make the jump and find my replacement interface I'll write an article all about this for my bog...


Zz.

Re: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

As I have my Multiface powered with it's own PSU maybe I don't need the power from the Mac as well?

Found THIS on another forum.... similar issue discussed... This is his solution... could it work? How to recognise pin 01..

"I am going to save you tens of dollars with a ghetto solution. place a thin strip of tape on the power pin of your interface to computer connection. I have a Focusrite 24 and had the computer morse code comming through my headphones/speakers. After placing a piece of tape on pin 1 of the firewire cable I have very clean silence. I know I can spend $20 on a firewire isolator cable or $70 on a Hum eliminator but I like my tape just fine cause it was free and easy. Use an x-acto knife to break you off a skinny piece.

I know I can geek out and make a custom cable with the pin 1 cable severed but this took me 15 seconds. I will carry scotch tape with me if I ever do a live gig.'


In case it's of any use to someone else....

Zz.

Re: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

Still no more replies on this topic?

Do you need an 'RME' psu for a Multiface II or can I just buy a generic one to try?

Still getting these pops and crackle, digital blips and bits In my audio, definitely the sound of the computer working being transmitted..

So annoying and frustrating..


Zz.

Re: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

I'm running a Multiface 1 with a switchmode laptop power supply with no problems. I get -103db RMS noise floor, which I think is inline with RME specs.

So you should be fine.

Regarding taping over pin 1 - the idea is solid, however the Multiface may use a different pin for power. Maybe RME might be kind enough to let you know which so you can test this theory.

39 (edited by richtrix 2016-05-11 16:18:54)

Re: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

Just in case anyone else out there has this problem and wants a solution I have one. I used a digiface for years with no issue. At some point I picked up some multiface 1's at a good price and started using them. I have 3 now. They are a good value on eBay BUT. There was this noise issue. As above it is best described as "digital Morse code" whenever applications are opened and closed or windows moved around. I tried everything listed above to no avail. RME has claimed it is a user deployment issue but this is FALSE. These systems have a design flaw in them which causes machine and computer system noise on some systems to be transmitted from the PCI card to the multiface. In this thread RME claims it was a groundloop problem caused by other equipment not properly interfaced with the multiface or electrical problems etc. This has caused many users on this very thread to go to great expense, hiring electrical experts, servicing other equipment etc. to no avail to remedy this problem. I have done exhaustive testing and have found one and only one solution. It does involve some sort of 'ground loop' as RME has indicated but it is only a groundloop between the PCI card and the Multiface. As recommended above by using tape you can cover pin1 (and yes it is the same pin 1 as other firewire devices) to isolate the power supply. You then can use your external "AUX" power supply. You must cover pin 1 as mixing power supply sources could cause damage to your computer. I found this fix to be inadequate though. I still had noise. You must isolate the box from the PCI card completely. Since it is a groundloop problem you must also cover pin 2 (gnd) with tape. I also covered the outside of the connector (shield) for good measure but that might not be necessary. This cleared up the noise completely and now these are great units!!! As far a RME goes, shame on you for refusing to actually look into this for your customers over the years who have repeatedly on forums all over the net complained of this problem. This is a design flaw. Isolating your audio path from computer system noise and noisy switchmode power supplies has been a basic part of PCI interface design since the 1990's when they first emerged mainstream. Even though this product is no longer manufactured by RME please at least apologize to your users for this utter failure in design and customer service.

40

Re: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

I really don't think that the blame can be put on to RME's design or that there is anything wrong with their customer service - in my experience they are telling you the truth when they say it is a ground loop and that every system will have a unique fix depending on the chain of devices.

I have the Multiface with PCI card and was having similar noise issues.  A fairly loud digital hum which would alter pitch depending on the buffersize settings.  After a process of elimination connecting and disconnecting each device in the system I eventually narrowed it down to two of my synthesizers.  When I turned them off the noise would vanish.  While the synths were on and connected to the Multiface I tried removing the USB cables which connected the synths to the PC - this did change the loudness of the noise so I thought it might be the USB cables.  After trying different ones I concluded that it might not be them after all. With the synths connected to the Multiface the noise would disappear if I disconnected the audio channel inputs in my DAW.  The noise would disappear if I disconnected the cables from the synths to the Multiface too.  It turned out the cables were not balanced and changing these to balanced jacks removed all the noise.  No more digital hum from the ground loop, no more high pitch whine from low buffersize values.  No need to cover the ground pin on the firewire cable or isolate the Multiface from the PCI card.

Re: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

Hmmm... I picked up a Multiface 1 with PCI HDSP about a month ago and have been going nuts trying to troubleshoot a pitched whine while playing music.  Volume sort of matches the fader levels in TotalMix.

I have a GTX980 on my motherboard PCI-e x16 slot and a Creative soundcard only used for game audio in a PCI-e x4 slot since this is my 'all in one' hobby computer.

Guess I'll be trying to cover the pin 1 and pin 2 as discussed above to see if it helps.   I already have an external PSU for the Multiface 1.

With Black Friday coming I may just go for a Fireface UCX.  I already have a good TI chipset Firewire PCI-e card in my system since I was using an M-Audio Firewire 410 before buying the Multiface 1.  As I recall using the FW410 I did NOT have this noise/whine issue regardless of playback volume.

Re: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

Alas no change.   Electricians tape over pin 1 and pin 2 on the computer end of the cable where it connects to the HDSP PCI card.  Proved it's blocking power from the HDSP card to the Multiface working by removing external power supply from the Multiface box = no audio.  Plugging PSU back in results in audio resuming.

Correction to previous in that I reconnected my FW410 via PCIe Firewire card and have an very similar sounding/volume noise/whine.

Computer, sub, nears, and Multiface all get power from the same Monster PowerCenter.

Going to try finding XLR ground lifters and maybe a HumX today.

Sigh.

43 (edited by doom_Oo7 2017-06-13 20:56:54)

Re: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

Got the same problem over here with a Multiface II + HDSPe (that I don't get with the same setup and a MOTU soundcard that I was lended).

Computer, two HS80 + 1 HS10. Whenever any kind of 3D content is shown on screen, eg games, web pages that uses opengl, whatever, I get humming and buzzing that seems to match the various processing that occurs on the computer. I tried the PSU, switching the RME card position, but to no avail.

edit: oh well, I already posted in this very thread five years ago it seems. Since I've moved multiple times and changed computer but the problem wasn't fixed either.

44

Re: Multiface Noise / interference from Mac and or Video Card + Monitor

Which just means the ground loop is still the same and there. This has been explained numerous times: disconnect everything from the Multiface except the computer connection. Plug in headphones and listen. No noise. Connect your amplifier/speakers to the MF - noise. Now isolate the groundloop...

BTW, sometimes (only sometimes) it helps to add another ground, like connecting the housing of the MF to ground where most units are grounded (the power outlet). But in case the MF is mounted in a rack the rack most probably already is a ground connection and might be the reason fior the ground loop.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME