Topic: PCIe AES/EBU + Multjface II latency issues

Hi
I've been using my PCIe with 2 Apogee's Rosettas 800 succesfully about 5 years. Recently I bought a second hand Multiface II with the PCI card (not the PCIe) to add more channels to my studio. I use Windows 64, installed the last drivers (4.17) and using ProTools 12 HD. I try to record but the system works fine a few minutes and then appears a big latency. I'm using the spdf output from the multiface as main monitor output. Both cards are setting to internal. I think it's a sync issue, maybe not. But I am not an expert in this case. Can you help me to fix my problem?
Best Regards

Re: PCIe AES/EBU + Multjface II latency issues

Although I think you have a clock issue it would be good if you could give additional information about your system, then somebody supporting you has everything in one place, i.e.:
- Which 64-bit version of Windows ? 7, 8, 10 ?
- Which mainboard do you use ?
- Which graphic card do you use ?
- What kind of latency do you mean ? Can you describe it a bit more or give sound sample ?

If you use multiple cards, then they need to be synchronized.
Preferrably by the RME card as master (as it has steadyclock).
So you need to look into the handbooks how the cards can receive clock and how they are connected to each other. The interfaces receive clock on digital input channels like ADAT, SPDIF, AES, MADI.

If there are no digital lines in use between the cards (like ADAT, SPDIF, AES)
then the only solution is to use Word Clock.

You need to check whether all interfaces support WC.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

3 (edited by Varela 2017-06-21 06:05:21)

Re: PCIe AES/EBU + Multjface II latency issues

I see it. I imagine that part that "both cards need to be conected"
My Rosetta's digital outputs are bussy with AES outputs (Rosetta's digital outputs can use only 1 option, it can't be share with other like ADATs at the same time). So there's no other option than WC. In that case, which set up should I choose? Rosetta's WC or the WC from the PCIe Cards?
Which software options should I choose in the DSP settings?

My Windows is 7 64 bits Professional and my mainboard is an Asus Sabertooh x-79 with 64 GB of Ram. My videocard is a GeForce 520.

Thanks for your input

Re: PCIe AES/EBU + Multjface II latency issues

I would try smth like this:
RME card: set clock to internal
Rosettas: set clock to WC

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

5 (edited by Varela 2017-06-21 06:16:56)

Re: PCIe AES/EBU + Multjface II latency issues

ramses wrote:

I would try smth like this:
RME card: set clock to internal
Rosettas: set clock to WC

Great!
I will try it tomorrow and keep you update!
Should I connect the 75 ohm wire from the PCIe to Rosettas?
Thanx again!

Re: PCIe AES/EBU + Multjface II latency issues

Varela wrote:
ramses wrote:

I would try smth like this:
RME card: set clock to internal
Rosettas: set clock to WC

Great!
I will try it tomorrow and keep you update!
Should I connect the 75 ohm wire from the PCIe to Rosettas?
Thanx again!

My suggestion implies that you need to perform a proper WC cabling.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: PCIe AES/EBU + Multjface II latency issues

Ok. GREAT NEWS!!!!
After trying a lot of scenarios I made my day!
Everything is smooth and sounding like a charm!
The solution was to connect the WC out from the Multiface II to the Hdsp's WC input. On the DSP software leave the Multiface's clock source as Internal and the AES Clock Source as Word Clock.
So Ramses Very Thanks for your support and help!!!
Best Regards!

8 (edited by ramses 2017-06-22 05:47:59)

Re: PCIe AES/EBU + Multjface II latency issues

>The solution was to connect the WC out from the Multiface II to the Hdsp's WC input.

I am astonished that the HDSP PCI card, which "drives" your Multiface II, does also have WC.
Or is the sentence not correctly typed ?

I thought the objective is to simply use the WC IN and OUT on the Multiface II.
What did you do exactly ?

> On the DSP software leave the Multiface's clock source as Internal and the AES Clock Source as Word Clock.

When I look into the handbook on page 18, then it seems to me, that you only need to set clock mode to "master".
Settings "Pref Sync Ref" make only sense if the device is not WC master. So any settings will be ok as it doesnt matter.

Could you pls provide a screenshot of driver settings dialog ?

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: PCIe AES/EBU + Multjface II latency issues

ramses wrote:

>The solution was to connect the WC out from the Multiface II to the Hdsp's WC input.

I am astonished that the HDSP PCI card, which "drives" your Multiface II, does also have WC.
Or is the sentence not correctly typed ?

I thought the objective is to simply use the WC IN and OUT on the Multiface II.
What did you do exactly ?

> On the DSP software leave the Multiface's clock source as Internal and the AES Clock Source as Word Clock.

When I look into the handbook on page 18, then it seems to me, that you only need to set clock mode to "master".
Settings "Pref Sync Ref" make only sense if the device is not WC master. So any settings will be ok as it doesnt matter.

Could you pls provide a screenshot of driver settings dialog ?

Sure. Later I will up some captures.
Also I swaped de WC wire ports and it works fine too. I connected the the WC Out from the AES/EBU card through the Multiface WC Input. Swaped the Clocks in the DSP setting software successfully. I'm not at studio now, but I take some pics later.

Re: PCIe AES/EBU + Multjface II latency issues

I hope this works. I'm on my iPhone and don't know how to upload a pic!
http://imgur.com/a/PEIrd

Re: PCIe AES/EBU + Multjface II latency issues

The Multiface Tab in the driver settings dialog I understand.

But what is the TAB for "AES" ???

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

12 (edited by Varela 2017-06-23 03:47:17)

Re: PCIe AES/EBU + Multjface II latency issues

ramses wrote:

The Multiface Tab in the driver settings dialog I understand.

But what is the TAB for "AES" ???

I don't know which part you don't understand?
Did you noticed something wrong?
Can you tell me?

Re: PCIe AES/EBU + Multjface II latency issues

Not wrong, but unexpected to see a separate TAB called "AES" in the driver settings dialog.
And I am wondering whether this comes from your Multiface II or whether this is another RME card.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: PCIe AES/EBU + Multjface II latency issues

Wow!!!!
That answer really knocks me out of the ring!
My system is estable by now (cross fingers) and I' m happy with it. Any future issue you'll be notice.

15 (edited by ramses 2017-06-23 05:54:46)

Re: PCIe AES/EBU + Multjface II latency issues

I dont know the Multiface very well, maybe its built with 2 components inside.
Or the driver simply display it in this way (potentially old menue design).

I had the RME UFX and am having UFX+ and RayDAT.
There are all AES relateds settings in one TAB of the driver settings dialog.

I only have several tabs, when i.e. the MADIface driver supports several devices or instances of the same device.
UFX+(1), UFX+(2), ADI-2 Pro (3) ...

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: PCIe AES/EBU + Multjface II latency issues

Maybe I know now why.

Could it be the case that you are using 2 different RME products in your PC
- RME HDSPe AES and
- RME Multiface II

additionally the 2 Rosettas ?

Then you would have in total 4 devices which need to be synchronized.
Then it would make sense to have an additional AES tab in the RME driver settings dialog.
On the screenshot I see: "AES (1)" and "Multiface (2)"

This you didnt communicate in the description of your setup not very well and
confused me why you talked about settings about AES.
Normally I regard AES simply as an I/O channel on a card not an interface itself.

So you have 4 devices to be synchonized.

Then I would eventually use the AES Card as Clock master since this seems to be the newer card
and there you have connected your main monitors you said.

Its a good strategy to take an RME device as clock master and the main device which will get clock changes,
usually the device where your main outs are connected to. As it might be a PCIe card, it will also be the more
modern card compared to the old Multiface II. Maybe also the version of steadyclock is more modern on the
newer card (potentially already steadiclock v2).

So set the RME AES to clock source internal and
Multiface II: set clock to WC.
2 x Rosettas: set clock to WC

steadyclock v1, v2 and v3

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: PCIe AES/EBU + Multjface II latency issues

I am now a little confused afterwords in terms of your "hurray" how you solved it

> The solution was to connect the WC out from the Multiface II to the Hdsp's WC input.
> On the DSP software leave the Multiface's clock source as Internal and the AES Clock Source as Word Clock.

Now I understand the 1st part, you have 2 RME cards, Multiface II and HDSP (or HDSPe AES).
If you use the Multiface II as clock, yes then you set it right as master on the Multiface II
and on the RME AES interface you set it to WC, like on the Rosettas.

BUT .. when I look to your picture which you shared with us (btw thanks, that was enlightening)
there I see in the TAB "AES" clock source set to "internal", not to "WC" ...

If the HDSPe AES is the more modern card and if your monitors are connected to there, maybe use better this card as clock source for the others. A litte reconfiguration excersize, but now you know how it works, WC recabling should not be required.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

18

Re: PCIe AES/EBU + Multjface II latency issues

The customer has a Multiface and a HDSPe AES in his computer. In his first post he refers to the AES as 'PCIe' card. See also the title of this thread.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: PCIe AES/EBU + Multjface II latency issues

Thanks Matthias. For my eyes it was at the beginning not so easy to read, but we came at least to results wink
For you surely easier knowing your product folio very well wink

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

20 (edited by Varela 2017-06-23 18:06:24)

Re: PCIe AES/EBU + Multjface II latency issues

To be clear. This is my hardware. (Except Rossetas)
http://imgur.com/a/aRmeW
Rosetta's clocks are setting to External => AES, not to Word Clock