Topic: Which HDSPe Card do i buy ?

Hi

I currently have a Babyface ( Not PRO), i was using this with a z800.

I have just purchased a z820 Dual e5-2690v2 and want to buy a PCIe HDSPe RME card. The main reason for this is CPU consumption even though it may be minimal i still want to upgrade to a PCIe card.

I have no idea on the differences between these cards but know it must be RME and need some advice.

I guess i will just ask questions if you can answer please do.

0) My Needs: 
- i need to connect my yamaha hs80 speakers ( XLR Preferable although RCA is OK )
- need to connect 1 microphone
- need to have headphone jack
- need midi in/out separate if possible

Questions
1) I am thinking my only choices are RayDat or AIO ? is this correct my budget could go to the AES

2)are the connection cables included with the raydat/aio/aes ?

3)does the raydat/aio/aes have microphone pre amps ?

4) is the raydat /aio/aes good for DAWs > do i need any other hardware ?

5) I have read that the AIO is a noisey PCIe card as in hdd / fan noises etc coming through the speakers > i have already cut the ground wire on my Yamaha's because of ground loop.( Yes its safe )
A) Has the noise issue been fixed
B) Does it occur on raydat or aes
C) If some noise did exist with PCIe Audio Cards would the Cut ground wire in my situation resolve this as it has done for my ground loop noise ?

6) It states that the AES has up to 500MB/s ( 250 both ways) Is this also the same speed for RayDat and AIO ?

Thanks

Re: Which HDSPe Card do i buy ?

I have done more research and am leaning towards the AIO .

1)2)3)4 all sorted if I buy AIO

5) ???????????? There must be other AIO users here who can let me know if there is any noise with this PCIe card.
I read in a forum that RME fixed this issue and I am wondering how ? Hardware or software fix ? If hardware then what AIO hardware revision do I look to buy ?

Or is this all a myth ?

6) AIO does 2.5Gbps ( 500MB/s ) I take it that is 250MB/s both ways

I am just after some solid information so I can buy the best PCIe card and would appreciate some users experience with this before I buy .

Thanks

Re: Which HDSPe Card do i buy ?

None of the PCIe cards have integrated mic preamps. I also ordered a new AIO for myself. Let's see about the noise ...

4 (edited by ramses 2018-01-14 10:35:20)

Re: Which HDSPe Card do i buy ?

Based on my experience CPU consumption is not much more.
In the past I had also the "suspicion" it has to be a PCIe card.
Therefore I build afterwards a construct like this, to use the UFX as preamp on a RayDAT.
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … RME-RayDAT

If you compare RME PCIe, FW, USB, thunderbolt solutions in terms of RTT between PC and recording interface,
then you will notice, that USB and Firewire are very close to PCIe/Thunderbolt based solutions:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/index.php/Attachment/1931-UFX-UFX-RayDAT-Latencies-jpg

If you create very big test projects with 400 tracks (!) and 2 VSTs per track (!), then you will notice,
that with the UFX+ via USB3 you can still playback with only 32 samples ASIO buffersize without pops and clicks.
See my blog article: https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … acks-de-en

In smaller projects with 2-3 VST instruments (Superior Drummer, Trillian, B4) I tried to find out whats better,
UFX or UFX in front of a RayDAT in terms of CPU, but tbh I couldn't find much visible difference.

I leave it up to you, whether you still want/prefer a PCIe based card.

I would rather than that suggestion to look at the UFX II. Then you have a real top recording interface with so many advantages. And as it is a 30 channel interface it still fits to USB2 which makes this very flexible.

I recommend the UFX II because it is the UFX+ (minus MADI, minus Thunderbolt) that has been designed last recently and hast latest converter technology, overworked preamps, analog section, better headphone outputs, better Durec, timestamps in Durec recordings, additional features to make standalone operation more complete, you can connect the ARC USB directly to the device which is nice for standalone operation.

If money is not limiting you, get UFX II. Otherwise look at UCX.
802 needs the old ARC to switch between standalone profiles and doesnt have auto set.

Look at this comparison sheet in my blog article:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/index.ph … 017-12-pdf

So my recommendation to you is, don't limit yourself (in terms of interface selection) too much because "you heard" that USB might be a disadvantage because of higher CPU consumption. Get the recording interface that covers your current and future demand. Recording interfaces that have been designed last recently usually have the latest converter technology, analog section, phones preamps. And look at the final cost, the AIO becomes quite expensive if you expand it to the full solution when buying each available module. Also I regard it as better to have 1 big USB cable from PC to rack instead of having to deal with breakout cables in the back of the PC.
And build your setup simple in terms of the number of TotalMix FX instances that are required to manage your setup.

If you use i.e. an UFX as Preamp and for AD/DA in Front of your RayDAT (like I did for some time), then you need to control the routing for each of the 2 Recording interfaces in 2 separate TotalMix Instances. Possible and can be easily hardcoded, but this is not everybodies taste. When connecting only pure Preamps or ADDA devices, this would not occurr, since you control the routing then exclusively on the RayDAT card.

The most flexible solution is to use RME recording interfaces together with the Octamic XTC, which can be configured as an AUX device, so that you can control the most required functions of this very versatile Unit via the one TM FX instance of your main interface (be it an UFX* or RayDAT or whatever). You only need MIDI cables for the remote control of the XTC. And even this can be topped if you would get i.e. an UFX+ which supports MIDI over MADI. Then you have 1 fibre cable, you can connect up to 8 XTC and build a fiber ring between these devices, where each cable maybe be up to 2km long and the you can remote controll all the 8 XTCs from the one TM FX instance of the UFX+, which makes the UFX+ with MADI to a very versatile unit. Octamic XTC also comes with MADI. And there are several other interesting preamps and AD/DA available to expand this solution further. Most versatile is the XTC and much comfort as you can control everything in the TM FX instance of the UFX+. Ok .. everything has its price, its not cheap, but very flexible, the only reason why I told you this, as not many people know about these advantages when using MADI.

Another nice feature of the new devices like UFX II and UFX+ is, that the MADIface driver supports many devices.
This means that ALL devices which you connect by MADIface driver can directly be accessed by your DAW or other application that supports ASIO, as of now you can access by this one driver these devices: UFX+, UFX II, MADIface XT / Pro / USB, OctaMic XTC, ADI-2 Pro, Digiface USB.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Which HDSPe Card do i buy ?

If you want much flexibility for the future, then go MADI, like described here, sorry only available in english.
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … Cber-MADI/

Whats also possible is to make the RayDAT the heart of your recording system and to integrate the excellent ADI-2 Pro into this concept and then further AD/DA converter and preamps as you require. The Octamic XTC is very versatile for that:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … ort-DE-EN/
By this you get TotalMix and ARC USB into your setup even when using ADI-2 Pro which has no possibility for TM FX and ARC USB by its own. This is also a very nice solution. Then you have reference grade ADDA for phones and main monitor and can switch A/B between phones and monitors by using TotalMix FX and/or ARC USB.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Which HDSPe Card do i buy ?

Ok so correct me if I am wrong but I think I am getting this PCIe card differences.

Raydat does not have dac but the AIO does. The ray dat needs a dac like adi-2 pro to process connect my speakers but the AIO doesn’t need this.

So the question remains what is the major advantages of the ad/da on the AIO vs the ADI-2 Pro ? Is it night and day to my ears ? Is the latest ad/da on the adi-2 pro worth the spend ?

7 (edited by ramses 2018-01-14 15:38:22)

Re: Which HDSPe Card do i buy ?

ADI-2 Pro is not a must, I only wanted to give you ideas, what possibilites exist to build your environment.

ADI-2 Pro has a "high end" DAC built-in and offers a lot of features, Reference grade quality. Therefore this unit costs €1600 alone. You need to read what this unit can do for you. But its basically an AD/DA converter, phones preamp with cool features that no other RME recording interface has (PEQ, dynamic Loudness, Crossfeed) along with that, USB DAC, etc etc .. long list.

ADI-2 Pro has no TotalMix FX support, this you get by the RayDAT (but without a FX chip on the board, like with the AIO) and by this you can then also use the ARC USB which needs a recording interface with TM FX support.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Which HDSPe Card do i buy ?

I am still a little lost with the arc USB and why it’s needed in the raydat adi-2 combination


Also what is the connections available from the raydat to the adi-2 pro. Because my main focus with this upgrade from the babyface is the CPU processing I want a sound card that can communicate both ways simaltainiously so when my projects are big as they are I need that my cpu needs that.
With that said how does the raydat adi-2 really work together ?
What I mean is the AIO does Packet-based full-duplex communication ( both ways simaltainously )
  What about the raydat adi-2 combination  ? I assume the adi-2 will do the work via direction connection to the raydat via ADAT or AES ( I will not use the adi-2 USB connection  because of the same reason Iam upgrading ).
With premium ad/da + add ons put aside for the moment between the AIO and ADI, is there a TRUE Packet-based full-duplex communication WITH THE RAYDAT ADI combination or is there only one way once it reaches the ADAT /AES connection of the raydat.
Can you please elaborate on this as this is important to me ?

9 (edited by ramses 2018-01-15 19:12:31)

Re: Which HDSPe Card do i buy ?

EDITED
The ARC USB is simply comfortably. Do you remember, 1-2y ago only a few audio products of RME offered the possibility to connect an Remote Control (be it the normal one or the Advanced Remote Control (ARC). RME improved this now. The new "ARC USB" can be used now with all recording interfaces which support "TotalMix FX". Nearly all devices back to ~2002 or 2004.
This is simply for the "comfort". I only wanted to mention it.

Ok, I see now that you really thought about your requirements of having a card with full duplex communication to be on the safe side for big projects.

From reading the forum regulary it appears to me that you have 2 possibilities, that would make sense
a) getting a card like the RayDAT or
b) getting the UFX+ which should have full-duplex communication because it uses USB3 / thunderbolt

In regards to the combination of RayDAT and ADi-2 Pro. The RayDAT has optical SPDIF and AES completely split.
By this it is possible to route the sound either to the Phones or to the Analog Outs of the ADI-2 Pro.
With other interfaces like the UFX* its not so easy as there the two outputs AES and ADAT2 are not completely separated.

If you want you can only get the RayDAT and Preamps / ADDA converters that you like.

I only mentioned the ADI-2 Pro and the possible integration of an ARC USB into this concept for 2 reasons
a) the ADI-2 pro has high end ADDA conversion and an extremely versatile phones output
b) its maybe not wide known that you can integrate now something like the ARC USB into this concept as the ARC USB communicated with TotalMix FX and TotalMix FX does the interfacing with the recording interface that must support TotalMix FX (the newer version of TotalMix, it has nothing to do whether there is a FX chip on the card or not, "TotalMix FX" is the new product name).

@Matthias / RME: could you kindly confirm that the UFX+ does full duplex operation with USB3 and potentially also with Thunderbolt, which is a strong requirement for taccess, many thanks !

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Which HDSPe Card do i buy ?

I am grateful for all the information your prividing . I get the arc USB remote and agree it’s awsome Thank you


I am still yet to find information on what happens at the connection point from the  raydat to ( a / any ) ADDA ! is this a one way communication via light pipe or duplex packet data via light pipe ?

I am  really curious if the UFX+ thunderbolt is duplex ( I bet it is ) and what is the line speed both ways being thunderbolt II ??

Re: Which HDSPe Card do i buy ?

This is the thunderbolt card I am purchasing :

http://m.hp.com/h20195/V2/GetPDF.aspx/c04203028

It seems as though it supports up to 20Gbps bi-directional, dual channel data transfer. Although I am sure my Z820 will not ever take full advantage of that.

I hope Matthias can chime in on the UFX+ Thunderbolt with line speed and duplex confirmation

Re: Which HDSPe Card do i buy ?

taccess wrote:

I am still yet to find information on what happens at the connection point from the  raydat to ( a / any ) ADDA ! is this a one way communication via light pipe or duplex packet data via light pipe?

Light pipe is obviously (pun intended) a one-way connection of pure digital audio data, this is not comparable to a data connection like USB.


I am  really curious if the UFX+ thunderbolt is duplex ( I bet it is ) and what is the line speed both ways being thunderbolt II ??

"Speed" is not a criterion, and there is more than enough bandwidth...

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

13 (edited by ramses 2018-01-15 19:27:36)

Re: Which HDSPe Card do i buy ?

Even though the UFX+ looks expensive on the 1st glimpse it could be beneficial to you in several ways.

1. You would have a device that has a full duplex connection to the PC.
2. Even USB3 is full duplex, you wouldn't require Thunderbolt IMHO
3. You get  excellent Preamps
4. Analog I/O has improved in UFX+ over the older flagship interface UFX in terms of quality. My Geithain RL906D sound better than using the internal D/A in the Monitor.
5. The Headphone Preamps are already very nice
6. You get all the benefits of the improved Durec (timestamps, better support for slow devices)
7. It has enough I/O ports that you do not need to buy additional RME devices, you get RME quality in 1 box
By this you save the additional time for AD/DA conversion if you use RayDAT and Preamp or Converter connected via ADAT

Look here how well the RTTs are between UFX, UFX+, RayDAT with an UFX as Preamp in Front of it:

https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/index.php/Attachment/1931-UFX-UFX-RayDAT-Latencies-jpg

So the RTT latency - i.e. with 32 sample ASIO buffersize - is for the UFX+ better compared to the RayDAT,
no matter whether you choose USB3 or Thunderbolt. You need to add the time for either AD or DA conversion for the preamp or converter. In this case I used the UFX as preamp connected to the RayDAT.
So ... UFX+: RTT of 2,61ms (Thunderbolt) or 3,06ms (USB3)
compared to RayDAT 2,29 PLUS D/A conversion on UFX 0,9ms = 3,19ms.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Which HDSPe Card do i buy ?

RME Support wrote:
taccess wrote:

I am still yet to find information on what happens at the connection point from the  raydat to ( a / any ) ADDA ! is this a one way communication via light pipe or duplex packet data via light pipe?

Light pipe is obviously (pun intended) a one-way connection of pure digital audio data, this is not comparable to a data connection like USB.


I am  really curious if the UFX+ thunderbolt is duplex ( I bet it is ) and what is the line speed both ways being thunderbolt II ??

"Speed" is not a criterion, and there is more than enough bandwidth...

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME


Speed/Bandwidth is what I meant !

What is more than enough bandwidth ? Can we please have the gbps ?

So it must be no secret that the thunderbolt 2 does up to 20Gbps bi directional 10 each way I am now strongly considering buying a UFX + but only if I can get this information.

I am not interested in the USB 3.0 connection on this unit only the thunderbolt gbps please RME ?

Regards

15 (edited by taccess 2018-01-16 00:56:13)

Re: Which HDSPe Card do i buy ?

ramses wrote:

Even though the UFX+ looks expensive on the 1st glimpse it could be beneficial to you in several ways.

1. You would have a device that has a full duplex connection to the PC.
2. Even USB3 is full duplex, you wouldn't require Thunderbolt IMHO
3. You get  excellent Preamps
4. Analog I/O has improved in UFX+ over the older flagship interface UFX in terms of quality. My Geithain RL906D sound better than using the internal D/A in the Monitor.
5. The Headphone Preamps are already very nice
6. You get all the benefits of the improved Durec (timestamps, better support for slow devices)
7. It has enough I/O ports that you do not need to buy additional RME devices, you get RME quality in 1 box
By this you save the additional time for AD/DA conversion if you use RayDAT and Preamp or Converter connected via ADAT

Look here how well the RTTs are between UFX, UFX+, RayDAT with an UFX as Preamp in Front of it:

https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/index.php/Attachment/1931-UFX-UFX-RayDAT-Latencies-jpg

So the RTT latency - i.e. with 32 sample ASIO buffersize - is for the UFX+ better compared to the RayDAT,
no matter whether you choose USB3 or Thunderbolt. You need to add the time for either AD or DA conversion for the preamp or converter. In this case I used the UFX as preamp connected to the RayDAT.
So ... UFX+: RTT of 2,61ms (Thunderbolt) or 3,06ms (USB3)
compared to RayDAT 2,29 PLUS D/A conversion on UFX 0,9ms = 3,19ms.



Thumbs up ! I am  definitely leaning towards the UFX +

I just need someone at RME to confirm :

1) the thunderbolt port on the UFX + is full duplex connection
2) the bandwidth of the thunderbolt 2 port on the UFX + ( “ up to” amount gbps )

Thanks

16 (edited by taccess 2018-01-16 00:57:52)

Re: Which HDSPe Card do i buy ?

Is there a UFX + PDF that may contain this info ?

Re: Which HDSPe Card do i buy ?

Dandruff wrote:

None of the PCIe cards have integrated mic preamps. I also ordered a new AIO for myself. Let's see about the noise ...

Got mine today. No noise so far.

18 (edited by ramses 2018-01-18 07:15:00)

Re: Which HDSPe Card do i buy ?

taccess wrote:
ramses wrote:

Even though the UFX+ looks expensive on the 1st glimpse it could be beneficial to you in several ways.

1. You would have a device that has a full duplex connection to the PC.
2. Even USB3 is full duplex, you wouldn't require Thunderbolt IMHO
3. You get  excellent Preamps
4. Analog I/O has improved in UFX+ over the older flagship interface UFX in terms of quality. My Geithain RL906D sound better than using the internal D/A in the Monitor.
5. The Headphone Preamps are already very nice
6. You get all the benefits of the improved Durec (timestamps, better support for slow devices)
7. It has enough I/O ports that you do not need to buy additional RME devices, you get RME quality in 1 box
By this you save the additional time for AD/DA conversion if you use RayDAT and Preamp or Converter connected via ADAT

Look here how well the RTTs are between UFX, UFX+, RayDAT with an UFX as Preamp in Front of it:

https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/index.php/Attachment/1931-UFX-UFX-RayDAT-Latencies-jpg

So the RTT latency - i.e. with 32 sample ASIO buffersize - is for the UFX+ better compared to the RayDAT,
no matter whether you choose USB3 or Thunderbolt. You need to add the time for either AD or DA conversion for the preamp or converter. In this case I used the UFX as preamp connected to the RayDAT.
So ... UFX+: RTT of 2,61ms (Thunderbolt) or 3,06ms (USB3)
compared to RayDAT 2,29 PLUS D/A conversion on UFX 0,9ms = 3,19ms.



Thumbs up ! I am  definitely leaning towards the UFX +

I just need someone at RME to confirm :

1) the thunderbolt port on the UFX + is full duplex connection
2) the bandwidth of the thunderbolt 2 port on the UFX + ( “ up to” amount gbps )

Thanks

to 1) I think you can deduce it from this link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thunderbolt_(interface)

to 2) don't know why you ask this .. look .. you might know that all the channels of UFX+ are transferred instantly. There simply needs to be enough bandwidth to transfer them. USB3 (which is also full duplex) is able to handle the bandwidth of all UFX+ channels, thus thunderbolt also is capable of handling it.

USB2 bandwidth 480 Mbps (half-duplex) was alway sufficient to transfer 30 inputs and outputs (UFX, UFXII)
USB3 bandwidth 5000 Mbps (full-duplex) is sufficient to transfer 94 inputs and outputs (UFX+)
Thunderbolt     = 2 x 10.000 Mbps multiplexed
Thunderbolt 2  = 20.000 Mbps 1 logical channel
Thunderbolt 3  = 40.000 Mbps, I assume also here 1 logical channel

USB3 has approx 10 times the bandwidth of USB2 and is full-duplex. But the UFX+ has not 10 times the amount of channels, so USB3 should be fully sufficient to transfer all channels of the UFX+.

Thunderbolt is 4 -8 times the BW of USB3, so the BW for UFX+ is much much more than sufficient.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Which HDSPe Card do i buy ?

ramses wrote:

USB2 bandwidth 480 Mbps (half-duplex) was alway sufficient to transfer 30 inputs and outputs (UFX, UFXII)

Make that 70 (Madiface Pro).

USB3 bandwidth 5000 Mbps (full-duplex) is sufficient to transfer 94 inputs and outputs (UFX+)

Close to 200 on the Madiface XT, and theoretically more...


Thunderbolt is 4 -8 times the BW of USB3, so the BW for UFX+ is much much more than sufficient.

Indeed. But not required in the sense that USB 3 would be insufficient in any possible way.

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Re: Which HDSPe Card do i buy ?

The Z820 PCIe slots connect directly to each cpu. The USB ports on the Z820 have to go through 2 x controllers first.
This is my main reason for wanting PCIe or thunderbolt as it will help my specific architecture flow faster for my cpu. Then I am interested “actual”bandwidth for ufx+ so as no bottle neck between nvme and lsi bandwidths, just making sure each component i buy is right. I appreciate all the info and know that rme drivers are special and that rme can do wonders with USB 3 and USB 2 interfaces hey I own a babyface and it’s amazing.  Sorry it’s late here in Perth and I am going to buy a ufx + as it will be the best for me.
Thanks again I will be back if I need some help with it.

Regards

Re: Which HDSPe Card do i buy ?

taccess wrote:

The Z820 PCIe slots connect directly to each cpu. The USB ports on the Z820 have to go through 2 x controllers first.
This is my main reason for wanting PCIe or thunderbolt as it will help my specific architecture flow faster for my cpu.

While this sounds like an advantage in theory, it isn't an issue at all in real life... There is no such thing as "fast", really. An hour's music will always take an hour... It's bandwidth that matters, and if there are no issues there or other interruptions of playback, then TB isn't really "faster". The theoretical bandwidth is way beyond anything you will ever need for audio purposes.

See this test with USB 3.0, on ancient hardware from 2013, the Mac is from 2010, in fact...
192 channels recorded with no issues at all, https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=18982

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Re: Which HDSPe Card do i buy ?

Ok I am almost ready to buy the ufx plus either way this doesn’t matter but I am curious.

Does the ufx plus support thunderbolt daisychaining? I know there is only one thunderbolt port but would it be able to sit at the end of the daisy chain ?

If I have a UAD_2 Thunderbolt connected to my HP thunderbolt PCIe card can I connect the UFX plus into the daisychain port on the UAD-2 ??????

If so great
If not then I will buy the ufx plus and the uad PCIe octo

Need rme staff member to answer this please.

Regards

Re: Which HDSPe Card do i buy ?

Anyone ??

24

Re: Which HDSPe Card do i buy ?

That should work. TB is doomed to work, so to say. I do the same with the dual port in my LG monitor. Feeds the monitor and carries the signal on to the UFX+.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME