Topic: HDSPe Raydat, small clicks at 32 samples playback

Hey,

I've just installed a Raydat into an Asus z370-a prime motherboard (slot PCIE1_3, the bottom x1 slot).
I'm experiencing small noise/clicks in the audio path at a 32 sample buffer playback, only playing back
an mp3 file in Windows 10 media player.

I've check the dpc latency, which is at 0-50 microseconds in realtime, with a few peaks at 200 microseconds.

The cpu is an i7 8700 non K, not overclocked, and windows power profile is set to "high performance". So the
processor is running at about 4,3ghz all the time.

The AD/DA convert (Nuendo 8 I/O =  RME ADI 8 I/O copy), is being feed by ADAT lightpipe, 44.1khz.

I'm a little unsure, why I'm not able to playback the mo3 files, as I guess there isn't really any pressure for the whole
system / audio path?!

I'm thinking, if processor C-states / EIST should be disabled, if this could have anything to do with it. I've disabled network card, and I don't use any dedicated graphic card yet, only the onboard.

Also thought, that it could have something to do with IRQ sharing, since I don't know if the PCIE1_3 x1 slot is shared among other devices on the motherboard. But the manual doesn't have a sharing table in it, as Asus' normally have. Asus forum moderators says, that all Z370 mobo's, will have the same IRQ sharing table / layed out the same way, which I don't believe.

But to be honest, I don't know where to start looking for clues. I just installed the latest FW update for the Raydat card, + latest driver, so that should be okay.

SLL

RME Raydat, Asus Z370-A prime, i7 8700, Noctua D15s cooler, Corsair RM850x, Crucial 32GB DDR4 ram

Re: HDSPe Raydat, small clicks at 32 samples playback

Well AFAIK playing a mp3 in mediaplayer does not use asio driver/buffers so it is not related to the 32 buffer setting. What does the sync status report in the hdsp driver for the ADI?
To see how asio is working you could try and play something from a daw with asio driver, like reaper, which is free to demo.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
Babyface pro fs, HDSP9652+ADI-8AE, HDSP9632

3 (edited by SLL 2018-03-03 12:09:08)

Re: HDSPe Raydat, small clicks at 32 samples playback

I've tested a little more on my issue with small - not so often, clicks in the audio path. It almost sounds like a very good new vinyl record, where you sometimes hear a little click.

I've tested in Cubase pro 9.5.1, at different RME driver sample buffer settings. And it's like it happens on all buffer settings. I thought there would be a difference between say 512/256, and the lowest 32 sample buffer, but there isn't. I hear the same few clicks on the audio path, that as said sounds like a few clicks on a vinyl record.

I've made a little screen-capture of the RME driver settings panel:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pn50zwbu4hp4q … r.JPG?dl=0

I've also checked the Raydat's IRQ sharing, and it's seems like to have it's own IRQ 10 (-13), where no other devices is present.

Hmm... the DPC latency is pretty low. I'm getting a few peaks up to about 150 microseconds, and in generel DPC stays in the 0-50 microseconds area.

The next thing I wanna try is, to disable C-states cpu power saving in BIOS, cause the latency is lower to half of what is is now. Just to be sure, that the DPC latency doesn't play tricks on me :-)

Another thing I stumbled across is, that right after I've loaded Cubase, and turns up the volume a lot. I can hear some strange noise out of the speakers.  But the minute I start playback, all noise is gone. Also when I stop playback again. It's like there is something, that is getting initialized when you press play in Cubase for the first time after boot, and then it eliminates the noise, high pitched tones completely. Has any of you heard this?

Hmm.. I'm not sure if this is coming from the Raydat, or it is Cubase. But I didn't hear it with my older HDSP 9652, on my old Q6600 computer. So it's a new thing with the Raydat, and mu new i7 8700 computer.

EDITED:
Updated link for RME driver setup image.

RME Raydat, Asus Z370-A prime, i7 8700, Noctua D15s cooler, Corsair RM850x, Crucial 32GB DDR4 ram

4

Re: HDSPe Raydat, small clicks at 32 samples playback

The link to the Settings pic is wrong, it points to one's personal dropbox, not yours.

Constant clicks might mean wrong clock settings, but can also be caused by broken lightpipe cables.

Clicks can also occur when the clock settings are correct, but the Settings dialog shows a change from LOCK to SYNC from time to time for one of the ADAT inputs, for no obvious reason. If that is the case you could update the RayDAT firmware to a special version, found here:

https://archiv.rme-audio.de/download/ra … pcie16.zip

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: HDSPe Raydat, small clicks at 32 samples playback

Thanks a lot MC for helping out.

(I've updated  the image link above, of my drivers settings!) I only have the Raydat, and the Nuendo 8 I/O in the other end. So only one external digital AD/DA device.

As said, it's not like the clicks are very dominant. But there is a few clicks in the audio path continuously, when I playback audio. In stop mode, when nothing is playing, there is no clicks.

Yesterday I saw the "digital input, ADAT led" on my Nuendo 8 I/O", blink once. I guess this is clock stability, when this led blinks. So maybe it is a broken ADAT cable. I'll try out your suggestions a little later today.

1. Switch the current ADAT cables out. They are pretty old, so I switch them out with the  once in the Raydat box.
2. My BIOS, disable C-states, just to lower the DPC latency to an absolute minimum, nearly nothing. To be sure, that DPC isn't making problems.
3. I  would try the other Raydat firmware. I've tried to download it, but the link doesn't work?

All the best,

RME Raydat, Asus Z370-A prime, i7 8700, Noctua D15s cooler, Corsair RM850x, Crucial 32GB DDR4 ram

6

Re: HDSPe Raydat, small clicks at 32 samples playback

Sorry, link works now.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: HDSPe Raydat, small clicks at 32 samples playback

Thanks MC, I'll check it all out, and return with the results :-)

RME Raydat, Asus Z370-A prime, i7 8700, Noctua D15s cooler, Corsair RM850x, Crucial 32GB DDR4 ram

8 (edited by SLL 2018-03-03 20:28:53)

Re: HDSPe Raydat, small clicks at 32 samples playback

Hey MC,

- I've changed the ADAT cables, didn't solve it (I only switched the Raydat out ADAT cable, as this is where the problems seems to be.
- I've tried to disable all cpu power saving states, didn't solve it.
- I've update the firmware in my Raydat, which didn't solve it.

Now, I noticed something strange and to me unstable behaviour with the sync.

1. When I turn on my PC, the "digital input / ADAT led" keeps flashing randomly. Normally with me HDSP card, the ADAT led stayed on constantly, when I turned on my old PC. I guess this is not a good sign, as I think the LED should stay on constantly all the time, without making any flashes.

2. Now the strange thing is, that on the RME driver panel, if I switch from 256 samples to 512 samples, the Nuendo 8 I/O input ADAT led stops flashing, and is lit constantly? It's like when your cold boot the computer, the sync'ing is very hard to make. And often I can switch to TDIF and back to ADAT, and the LED stats on. Or switch to anything sample buffer on the driver panel.

3. Aother thing I sometimes see in the RME driver panel is, that the "input status" for ADAT1, sometimes quickly switches to "lock" and back to "sync" state. Not sure if this should happen, or it should stay on sync all the time.

So all in all, it seem like the sync is more unstable between the Raydat and my Nuendo 8 I/O. As said, I didn't see these problems with my old Q6600 / HDSP 9652 computer. Is the Raydat sync locking mechanism any different from the HDSP card?

In in doubt, can't figure out what goes on :-)

EDIT:
--------
Tried some more out with the RME driver panel. It all seems to be very shaky here, when I make settings in the RME driver panel. What I tried:

1. First of all, the clicks seems to be almost gone (if not completely gone, can't hear clicks) when I switch the "clock mode / clock source" from internal to ADAT1 in. Is the clock thing then coming from my Nuendo 8 I/O's ADAT out, instead of the Raydat card? I would rather have the mode set to "Internal", as I count on the Raydat being a better clock source?!
Also the Digital input / ADAT LED on my Nuendo 8 I/O is solid stable, when  I turn on my PC and cold boot it.

2. playing back some music with windows 10 media player, seemed to work fine at 128 / 256 sample buffer. I don't hear clicks.
When I then switch to 32 samples (lower latency setting), I hear a clicks at a steady sync in the background all the time. But If I stop the Media Player playback, and then start playback again, music plays perfectly back without the steady clicks in the background.

All very spooky. It's like when something isn't clicking or sounding strange, I just have to fiddle with some of the driver settings, and I can make the playback work.

Basically it's the clock source, switching  from internal to ADAT1 in, that seems to minimize clicks in the audio path to nothing.
And then the steady clicks when I select 32 samples in the RME driver panel. Sound like a fast metronome. It also goes away, if I stop media player playback, and start playback again right after. Then I can play back music at a 32 sample buffer with no problems, which I also would think the Raydat could do. I just don't like, that Media Player has to be stopped / started before it works.

So right now, I'm confused. I'm not sure of anything anymore?

RME Raydat, Asus Z370-A prime, i7 8700, Noctua D15s cooler, Corsair RM850x, Crucial 32GB DDR4 ram

9

Re: HDSPe Raydat, small clicks at 32 samples playback

That sounds more like you set the Nuendo to a wrong clock state - Internal clock, which then requires the RayDAT to be set to ADAT sync mode.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

10 (edited by SLL 2018-03-04 07:23:53)

Re: HDSPe Raydat, small clicks at 32 samples playback

MC wrote:

That sounds more like you set the Nuendo to a wrong clock state - Internal clock, which then requires the RayDAT to be set to ADAT sync mode.

Yes, my Nuendo is set to "int" sync on both AD and DA. Could that really be the problem? I guess it could, since you say it MC :-) When it comes to sync settings, I'm not too clever. I haven't touched my Nuendo in all this, so I guess I might have used some other RME driver settings on my old computer.

I'n not in my studio right now, but I'll try out the "ext" Nuendo setting after some breakfast :-) I guess this is the setting you want me to use, if the Nuendo should be synced to the Raydat's internal selected sync, right?

I really hope is just my own stupidity that is the cause of my problems.

Thanks again MC,

EDIT:
Forgot to ask about the new v16 firmware you gave me. I guess it doesn't do anything worse performance-wise for my audio, using this new firmware, compared to the public FW I downloaded?

RME Raydat, Asus Z370-A prime, i7 8700, Noctua D15s cooler, Corsair RM850x, Crucial 32GB DDR4 ram

11

Re: HDSPe Raydat, small clicks at 32 samples playback

There is a clear labelling on the unit that says 'Input' for both AD/DA, and a white line that leads to 'ADAT'. Can't be more clear, IMHO.

If you don't have the manual for that unit download the one from RME's website, product ADI-8 DS.

Clock setups are clearly explained in all manuals, with the most important statement highlighted: 'there can be only one clock master'.

Firmware Update 16 can stay in the RayDAT, it will become official sooner or later anyway.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

12

Re: HDSPe Raydat, small clicks at 32 samples playback

Hey MC, I've made a photo of my settings:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8u0jdlia6j9sx … O.jpg?dl=0

When select "ext" sync, the led's just flashes. The only way I can get the Nuendo to sync, is by selecting the bottom "int" setting.
Not sure if that is the correct setting, but I hope so.

RME Raydat, Asus Z370-A prime, i7 8700, Noctua D15s cooler, Corsair RM850x, Crucial 32GB DDR4 ram

Re: HDSPe Raydat, small clicks at 32 samples playback

No definitely not! If you can not get the ADI to slave correctly (but I have about the same setup HDSP9652 and ADI8 and it works here) you could use 2 adat cables, one in and one out and sync the raydat to the adi (Set raydat to sync to the adat port you used).
But if you want to try the ADI as slave again. Set it to 44k(and the raydat too) and both AD and DA to ext. Input to ADAT and nothing else active. It should stay on sync! And not flash.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
Babyface pro fs, HDSP9652+ADI-8AE, HDSP9632

14

Re: HDSPe Raydat, small clicks at 32 samples playback

Thanks vinark, sorry that I make this topic so long. I'll try out what you've written a little later today, and return with the result.
I think I also hook up my old PC and the HDSP again, just to see how I've set things there. I really don't hope, that something is wrong with either my new PC (mobo, PSU) or my new Raydat card. I really do hope, that this is all user mistakes :-)

Thanks again guys.

RME Raydat, Asus Z370-A prime, i7 8700, Noctua D15s cooler, Corsair RM850x, Crucial 32GB DDR4 ram

15

Re: HDSPe Raydat, small clicks at 32 samples playback

Hey guys,

I think I'm starting to get the grip of how the sync settings works. I've never really thought much about it, since it just worked on my old HDSP 9652 setup.

What I've found out, please correct me if I'm wrong:

My Nuendo 8 I/O has 3 sync settings: Input, Ext. and Int.
It's also has the ADAT / TDIF switch, where I naturally use ADAT.

I found out - looking at the Nuendo top plate diagram, that "Input" sync on AD/DA should be used, when receiving sync from an external device, like the Raydat, correct?

And the External sync, is working with an Wordclock, which I don't use.

And the final setting "Internal", is when the Nuendo is the sync source for - in my case,  the Raydat, correct?

-------

On the Raydat I have switched between - internet and ADAT1 sync, 44.1 khz. Then I can see on the Raydat driver input status, when there is sync, and to what it is syncing. In my case to ADAT.

-------

So the new setting I'm using, is setting the Raydat up for "internal" sync. I guess then the Raydat act as sync source to the Nuendo AD/DA converter. This didn't work out good (random sync clicks), when I selected ""internal" on the Nuendo converter.
I guess the Raydat was putting out sync as source, and the Nuendo converters was also acting as sync source, is that correctly?

Now the new thing is, that  I only selected the "input" sync  on the Nuendo converters. I guess that the Nuendo then acts as  a slave to the Raydat?!
At least, I don't have any clicks in the audio path, unless I select a 32 sample buffer, and still playback music from windows 10 media player, then I hear clicks. I don't think I hear anything in Cubase, but I'll check it out again in Cubase.

To sum up, what works:
- Raydat "internal" sync, 44.1 khz, ADAT1  ---->  Nuendo  AD/AD "input" sync (works out fine, I guess the Raydat is source)
- Raydat "ADAT1" sync, 44.1 khz, ADAT1  ---->   Nuendo AD/DA "int" sync (work out fine, I guess the Nuendo is source)

Is this correct, and when sync device is best. I would think, that the Raydat as source is best, or?

Strange, that I'm getting clicks with a 32 sample buffer, playing back music in Win10 media player. Is that because the audio patch goes through Win10 audio layers, before it arrive to the kernal mode?

RME Raydat, Asus Z370-A prime, i7 8700, Noctua D15s cooler, Corsair RM850x, Crucial 32GB DDR4 ram

Re: HDSPe Raydat, small clicks at 32 samples playback

In any such setup, only one device can run on internal clock, everything else has to sync to it.


Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

17

Re: HDSPe Raydat, small clicks at 32 samples playback

Thanks Daniel,

Yes, I know I have to have a word clock device / board, to be able to sync more digital devices.
But I also only have my Nuendo 8 I/O on ADAT1 + my old Finalizer 96k on ADAT2 (not connected now though)

So I think it should be fine to use the Raydat as master, and the Nuendo as slave. And I think I have managed to
set it up correctly now.

I'm in doubt, if I should use the Raydat as master, or my Nuendo AD/DA converter as master. Which clock device is
best, if there is any different. The Raydat is newer that my old Nuendo converts, so the clock output could maybe
be better on the Raydat?

I've tried both ways, and I can't hear any different between the Raydat as master, and the Nuendo as master. But
some of you guys might now something else, have better ears than me :-)

RME Raydat, Asus Z370-A prime, i7 8700, Noctua D15s cooler, Corsair RM850x, Crucial 32GB DDR4 ram

18 (edited by vinark 2018-03-05 17:39:00)

Re: HDSPe Raydat, small clicks at 32 samples playback

YES you got it. And no you should not hear any difference between int and slave if rme did their work good (and they did). If you want advice, running the ADi as master is preferred from a technical stand point, but as you noticed you can't hear the difference (neither can I).
The crackles at 32 buffer is strange since wmp does not use the asio buffer. But since it is easily fixed with another buffer setting I would not worry. Win 10 still has some audio issues which I heard might be fixed with the redstone update that is coming. But I don't run win 10 so no real expertise here.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
Babyface pro fs, HDSP9652+ADI-8AE, HDSP9632

19 (edited by ramses 2018-03-06 07:21:06)

Re: HDSPe Raydat, small clicks at 32 samples playback

EDITED 06.03.18

1. Regarding what to use as clock master
Use the recording interface as clock master, which is directly connected to the PC -> in your case the RayDAT.
By this the RayDAT as clock master gets the proper frequency automatically from the DAW / application.
The devices which are clock slaves then also receive the new clock frequency from the master.

Example: I have a UFX+ connected to my PC and the UFX+ acts as clock master.
I have a ADI-2 Pro connected via AES to the UFX+.
When I start Cubase and change the sample frequency in a project from 44.1 to 48 kHz, then the sample frequency is automatically being changed on the UFX+ (clock master) and the ADI-2 Pro (Clock Slave) to 48 kHz.

By this you have more comfort, when working with different sample frequencies and one or more clock slaves.

2. in regards to BIOS settings you told

> I'm thinking, if processor C-states / EIST should be disabled, if this could have anything to do with it.
> I've disabled network card, and I don't use any dedicated graphic card yet, only the onboard.

Thinking is good, checking is better wink
-You can keep EIST turned on, then you can control the CPU clock from Windows in the different energy profiles.
For this purpose you can use the tool parkcontrol: https://bitsum.com/parkcontrol/
And to check CPU frequency you can use either CPUID CPU-Z https://www.cpuid.com/softwares/cpu-z.html
Alternatively also hwmonitor: https://www.cpuid.com/softwares/hwmonitor.html
The latter has the advantage to see the frequency of each CPU core separately, if required.
- Keep TURBO for the time being as by this you might reach a slightly higher base clock
- Disable C-States, P-States, T-States. In some BIOS you need to set C-States to C0/C1 to disable them.
- Disable C1E (Enhanced Halt States)
- Disable SpreadSpectrum to not get alternating clock frequencies which introduces latency as well
- Disable CPU core parking in the High Performance Energy profile by using the tool parkcontrol mentioned above.
CPU core parking is known to create latency on top, because it takes time until CPU is useable again.
Also Gamer know about the benefits to turn that off. In Cubase CPU core parking will be enabled as well if you
activate the Steinberg energy profile by enabling the option: activate modus for optimized audio performance
which you can find in Studio Settings -> VST Audiosystem

You can see some examples for fine tuning the Windows energy profiles using parkcontrol and information
about what latency the different Sleep States (C-States) cause in this blog article that I wrote:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … -X10SRi-F/

3. in regards to the CPU with integrated GPU
On my former company laptop (Lenovo T540P) which also has Intel Graphics inside of the CPU I experienced
clicks and pops for a simply audio playback with MusicBee using the RME ASIO driver.
The system was IDLE (had no load), the clicks and pops were triggered by scrolling up and down a Webpage
containing graphics in Firefox. That was somehow unbelieveable to me.
I had to raise the ASIO buffersize to 128 until the pops and clicks stopped and I was able to scroll inside Firefox.
The solution was finally to tell the system to use the nVidia GPU for the firefox application.
And then all my problems were away. I could use the lowest ASIO buffersizes again, even when I had load on the system.
The Intel integrated graphics share the DRAM of your system with the CPU.
I think this design is good to build a cheap PC .... But is far from ideal to drive a recording PC.
So please use a dedicated GPU in your system and it might be the case, that your problems runs smoother.
Use a Graphic card with the "zero fan feature", the Blower will be silent, as long as the GPU is under 60°C.
For Desktop usage this is no issue. Even when gaming the temperature might stay below 60°, especially
if the game doesnt stress your GPU so that you can easily use VSYNC which limits the frame rate to 60Hz.

Good luck otherwise.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13