1 (edited by jiw 2018-11-11 16:26:33)

Topic: Odd jumps during volume change

When changing the volume using the volume knob, occasionally, there is a jump up or down in the displayed volume irrespective of the direction of desired volume change.

This is most easily detected when the volume changes are displayed as 0.5 dB steps. In this case, the jumps are 1.5 dB.
However, it is also detectable during quicker volume changes, i.e. quicker rotation of the knob, but in this case, the jumps may be of different magnitude.


The device is the DAC, USB Firmware is revision 25, DSP Firmware is revision 23 and USB Fallback is revision 10.

2 (edited by mmm 2018-11-17 00:31:57)

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

Hello,

I report a similar issue on my (non FS) ADI-2 Pro running the latest firmware 183/88. The jumps are erratic but very frequent, happen even when turning the knob at very slow speeds, and can also go backward.

That behaviour started a couple of months ago (I can't recall having seen that before the summer), and since I'm not the only victim it might be firmware-related ?

3

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

We'll check that.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

4

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

There are two possible explanations.

1. Your encoder is defective inside and causes heavy bouncing, means multiple signals instead of one when turned one step. We think this is not the case. There is an anti-bouncing circuit in the unit, and if so severe that this one fails you would have constant problems with the encoder.

2. In our opinion the bigger and unexpected steps are caused from the internal 'accelleration' that happens when the knob is turned a bit more quick.

2 has been addressed in the latest firmware update. The treshold of detecting a faster turn, and thus change to quicker and bigger steps, has been raised a tiny bit. Most users will not notice the difference. But if you try to move from -45 dB to -40 dB and arrived at -35 dB although you did not turn the encoder that quick, the new version should help.

https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=27924

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

5 (edited by jiw 2018-11-28 19:19:06)

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

From: https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=27924

MC wrote:

- Improved (fine tuned) the Volume knob behaviour to prevent bigger steps of volume changes when turning the knob with slow and medium speed

I gather you are referring to this issue.

Originally, testing indicated the behaviour to be close to identical to the previously described behaviour.

However, after running the volume control through its entire range, this no longer seems to be the case. 

Regarding 1, the notches are clearly individually recognisable at low, medium and high angular speed and the indicated level changes follow them tightly, i.e. there are not many or even any unintentional level jumps that cannot be explained by 2.

Regarding 2, I assume, this can arise from the encoder not being settled in a notch and either bouncing a notch forwards or backwards if the grip on the knob is insufficiently tight or after letting go of the knob. Since the resulting acceleration might be greater than the acceleration for the intended volume change, this could indeed lead to relatively large volume changes that can go both up and down.

Unless the problem arises again, due to factors not covered with regards to 2, I will see this issue as having been resolved for me.

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

MC wrote:

There is an anti-bouncing circuit in the unit, and if so severe that this one fails you would have constant problems with the encoder.

I love learning about these extra details that went into the ADI-2 Pro design.  Bouncing encoders is one of my biggest bugbears in the digital audio world...

Eastwood Records
www.eastwoodrecords.co.uk

7 (edited by mmm 2018-12-15 12:40:28)

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

The new firmware has helped with the many 1-2dB jumps I experienced most of the time, many thanks for that!

... But the 'backward jump' issue remains.

It is happening occasionally, maybe once every 10 manipulations of the knob.
For example, with volume at -37, I turn (relatively slowly to see what's going on) anticlockwise to lower volume, and this is what happens:
click -37.5 click -38 click -38.5 click Surprise ! -34

I might well be in case 2 as reported by jiw... Would be interesting to know if other users experience the same thing. What puzzles me is that I had not noticed anything like that before last summer.

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

mmm wrote:

... For example, with volume at -37, I turn (relatively slowly to see what's going on) anticlockwise to lower volume, and this is what happens:
click -37.5 click -38 click -38.5 click Surprise ! -34 ...

I can't reproduce this, it works smoothly here (DAC V.24).

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

Nico.ch wrote:
mmm wrote:

... For example, with volume at -37, I turn (relatively slowly to see what's going on) anticlockwise to lower volume, and this is what happens:
click -37.5 click -38 click -38.5 click Surprise ! -34 ...

I can't reproduce this, it works smoothly here (DAC V.24).

Pro FS BE (v.89)

On rare occasion I get odd numbers starting with approx -70 or -90 showing then i.e.
-90.3 -90.8 -91.2 -91.7
-97.2 -96.3 -95.5 -94.7 -94.1 -93.4 -92.8

It depends on the speed turning the encoder and the lower the setting is the more likely it happens.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, Win7 Prof, Cubase 9.5, UFX+, Octamic XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS BE/DAC, RayDAT, ARC USB

10

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

There is nothing odd with that if AutoRef Level is active.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

11

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

mmm wrote:

... But the 'backward jump' issue remains. It is happening occasionally, maybe once every 10 manipulations of the knob. For example, with volume at -37, I turn (relatively slowly to see what's going on) anticlockwise to lower volume, and this is what happens:
click -37.5 click -38 click -38.5 click Surprise ! -34

That sounds like a broken encoder to me, not like a firmware problem.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

12 (edited by ramses 2018-12-16 11:55:20)

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

MC wrote:

There is nothing odd with that if AutoRef Level is active.

Yes AutoRef Level is active.
BTW .. functionality is fine for me only wanted to add this information, shall there be smth like "an issue".

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, Win7 Prof, Cubase 9.5, UFX+, Octamic XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS BE/DAC, RayDAT, ARC USB

13 (edited by mmm 2018-12-16 13:32:32)

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

Many thanks for your answers.

The problem does not happen if I turn really slowly, step by step. It might be the way I turn the knob, giving impulses from time to time... If it gets worse I'll have the unit checked.

14

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

ramses wrote:
MC wrote:

There is nothing odd with that if AutoRef Level is active.

Yes AutoRef Level is active.
BTW .. functionality is fine for me only wanted to add this information, shall there be smth like "an issue".

You wrote: 'on rare occasion', which means error report. But these numbers are always available.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

15 (edited by mmm 2018-12-22 01:32:31)

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

Well I don't know if you have changed anything, but I have the pleasure to say firmware 90 seems to have completely eliminated my problem: no more jumps or strange backward bounces any more !

Many thanks, cheers and merry Christmas smile

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

Hallo,
ich habe weiterhin die komischen Rückwärtssprünge beim Hochdrehen der Lautstärke
Firmware 90, ADI-2 pro, balanced mode, USB mode , EQ off
will die Lautstärke z.B- von -40 hochdrehen dann spring es zu -58 zurück, dann geht es etwas hoch dann wieder zurück usw. Habe ein kleines video aufgenommen, kann es aber hier nicht posten.
Kann ich es per Mail  an den Support senden?
Gruß

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

nach einem Werksreset funktioniert die Lautstärkeregelung
so halbwegs für 2 Stunden.
Dann gehts mit den Sprüngen wieder los.

Hardware Defekt ?

18

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

Sieht so aus...

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

19 (edited by jiw 2019-02-16 15:43:30)

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

The behaviour described in my original post (#1) and by other users keeps occurring on my DAC.

However, not only for the volume knob but also for encoder 2.

In the menus, turning encoder 2 sometimes does not change the setting as it should, e.g. after turning encoder 2, the indicator remains on original setting. Changing of the volume in the I/O menu, leads to similar jumps as when using the volume control.

I thought it could be explained by my handling of the encoders but I am becoming ever more doubtful of it.

Since MC has said that h4zok1's Pro seems to have a hardware defect (all in german), has the unit been sent in for a check and if so, could a cause be determined?

20

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

It seems the best thing is to return this DAC for a check. We would also like to know if your unit has 'broken' encoders, or if we have to further optimize our code...

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

21 (edited by mmm 2019-09-11 23:20:08)

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

I have been overly enthusiastic: the problem has come back to my unit, and is actually worsening.

Has anyone determined whether or not the cause is software-related ? If not I will return my unit under warranty.

22

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

I have received my unit back from service about two weeks ago.

However, the invoice says that only one encoder was replaced under warranty although I complained about the functioning of two encoders. Encoder 2 now functions fine but the volume knob behaves about the same as before. I have contacted the vendor about this.

I think only encoder 2 has actually been replaced which suggests that it is a hardware issue.

23

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

After my last post in this thread, MC contacted me privately and offered that the volume encoder would also be replaced under warranty if I send the DAC directly to RME.

I have taken him up on the offer and have received the unit back on Thursday. The volume encoder now works without issue.

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

Great News JiW.   Thanks for sharing.

Any Volume Jumps at my House have been caused by me...after drinking 40cups of Coffee.  smile:):)

Curt

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

I have this issue too and it's very frustrating from a Pro unit. I struggle getting the volume go in the right direction ALL the time. It started with too big jumps and now getting huge jumps even in the wrong directions.


I will try syntax and get it fixed or replaced. I have 5 year extended warranty.

Hope lesson is learned by RME when designing new products wink

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

Jchan,

Understand that my Post was entirely "tongue in cheek" and also note that my ADI-2DAC has NEVER exhibited any odd behaviors.

RME does not design Encoders.   They design End Use Products.  The RME design philosophy needs no input from either of us.   It seems quite exceptional as is.   Were a very few defective encoders (amongst the tens of thousands)  to find their way into the mfg pipeline?  It happens. 

Let us not "Throw the Baby out with the Bathwater"     

Curt

27 (edited by ramses 2019-10-08 06:00:03)

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

+1

This is simply the crux of industrial manufacturing. The quality is already at a quite high level. Of course, shit can happen always (like usual), but bad charges are recognized relatively quickly. Not so easy are component deviations. Some of them are directly recognizeable, some only after some time of usage.

But to reach and ensure 100% for every single component of an end user product it would result in exploding costs, which nobody would / could pay. Therefore you need some tradeoffs.

Most issues are already recognizeable at the beginning. You have money back and warranties to cover such exceptional cases. In my ~5 years of reading the RME forum and supporting other users I can say, that defects are rare.

I bought already a lot of RME devices, up to now I had no single quality issue.

The quite high prices of used RME equipment also speak a clear language, excellent quality of devices and long term driver support otherwise the prices would be significantly lower.

This I can't say for every other electronic product that I bought in the past 30+ years, therefore I am very happy with RME built quality.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, Win7 Prof, Cubase 9.5, UFX+, Octamic XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS BE/DAC, RayDAT, ARC USB

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

Yes dont get me wrong, I love RME, it was just not expected with RME to have a failing encoder like this. I've gotten used to virtually 100% flawless operation. I mean my FireFace800 still runs like new after what, 15 years? Incredible. Meanwhile other brands I've used that's just a few years have scraping gain knobs, scraping outputs and inputs, some not working, jumping faders etc.

I will get RME next time for sure. But first I need to get this baby fixed smile Hope it doesnt take too many weeks to get it back.


Best,

Johan

29 (edited by Curt962 2019-10-09 02:42:57)

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

Is it J Chan or Johan? 

Either way...hang in there Good Sir! 

You have chosen Wisely.   The RME Product has a Stellar Reputation for good reason, and I feel confident that your unfortunate difficulty will be dealt with Swiftly.

Might you anticipate countless enjoyable hours of fine listening in the near future!

Best to You,

Curt

PS:   I had your "Separation Anxiety" problem only 10months ago.  My ADI-2 DAC arrived from the Dealer only a few hours before I had to leave home on Work Assignment....HORROR!!

Sitting in the same chair Im sitting in now...I read the User Manual.  Cover to Cover...forwards and Backwards.  Over and Over.  It helped!!!

Perhaps You also could use your "away" time from the Product to boost your Knowledge Base.    Much to Learn, and even MORE to Like!!

Curt.  RME Cheerleader. smile

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

One note for people reading this topic: This behavior will always occur if you are using single-ended outputs on the ADI-2 Pro FS and Auto Ref Level is on.

If you start turning counter-clockwise from 0.0 dBr and the ref level is +24 dBu, the volume will jump back up at -5.5 dBr as it goes to +19 dBu on the reading.

I assume that is because the SE outputs cap out at +19 dBu and the balanced outs at +24.

31

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

Are you sure you posted in the correct thread? This is about broken encoders. What post did you refer to?

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

I just noticed the upper smaller encoder of my ADI-2 Pro does this as well. Jumps, irregular movement back and forth.
My wild guess is the encoders can't cope with the heat, because my unit get really hot.

Waiting for a response from Synthax on repair.

J

33

Re: Odd jumps during volume change

I received my unit back from Thomann, problem solved for me (under warranty).