Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

Frankly, and no doubt this will be an unpopular sentiment, the finger-pointing is getting tired. I don't care whose fault it is, and even if it is Apple's fault, RME should be bending over backward to figure out a workaround or work with Apple to find a real solution. Simply kicking the can down the road isn't really very solution-oriented.

152 (edited by ramses 2018-12-18 19:32:00)

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

From your comment I have to assume that you didn't read the whole thread thoroughly.
Its not about fingerpointing, etc.
RME provided already a workaround, not perfect but as good as possible from their side.

RME stated clearly that more than this workaround is not possible, Apple has to fix the key issue.
As I said, before the changes on Apple side the RME drivers were working.
So its pretty obvious who messed this up .. -> Apple.

I am pretty much convinced that there is no lack of cooperation from RME side.
We known how Apple works and thinks .. don't we ?!

May I ask whether you opened already an Apple case and whats the outcome of it ?

I think it would be good, if issues like this would be discussed on Apple forums with big visibility for everybody.
Then its maybe easier, that things like this get more attention from Apple side.
It would also have the advantage that Apple can see, that not only RME customers have these issues.

BR
Ramses
Win7 Prof, CubPro9.5, UFX+, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS/DAC, RayDAT, ARC USB, Sonnet USB3-PRO-4PM-E

153

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

WOW! That's (sadly) funny that I just stumbled upon this thread. I came here to just check for the latest drivers for my 5-6 year old Babyface (non Pro) wich worked flawlessly since second 1 ond Win 7 and now 10. I am an event technician and just recently bought a 2015 MacBook Pro 13" to be able to (light) mix stuff while "on the road" (which means in a hotel). The interesting part is that I bought a cheap Presonus AudioBox Interface, because I don't want to detach the breakout cable of my Babyface all the time, but have similar issues. I use Reaper and most recently Mixbus, and in Mixbus it only takes one single track and one single Fabfilter Pro C2 to get audio dropouts and weird graphic glitches when resizing (in Reaper it takes a few more). I've been in contact with Fabfilter and they tried to help, but could not recreate the issue on their machines. Sounds familiar? The "graphic intensive" plugins like Fabfilter and T-Racks seem to cause the main problems on my machine but then again also the oldschool Sonnox GUIs are flickering sometimes (and the audio drops out). I really don't know what it is and it's driving me nuts! But since almost every machine seems to behave in a different way I really think it's some Apple f@ckup. No wonder the pro community is turning their back on Apple. I was suggested to go from High Sierra to El Capitan to see if that's more stable and that will be my next move.

Anecdote: In my job we do lots presentations and 80% of the times someone comes along with a MacBook (which is maybe 15% of all jobs), there will be some hassle (given the correct adaptor is on venue in the first place). For two times now I haven't been able to get a signal via fibre glass out of a USB-C Macbook (with original adaptors an everything). Usually there is always a way but these just refused to work. One of the two we had to connect via 1m HDMI to work properly, you can guess how the face of the guy looked, who just bought this for 3-4k wink

I know you don't want to hear stuff like this if you are invested in RME and Mac but it seems like this is some major MacOS fail under the hood, but Apple only cares about iOS anymore (which I love and I hate myself for that a little). The point of why I am posting this here is that I hope that someone will figure out what this is, so we can all go on just creating and not bothering. But it doesn't seem like that there is one single manufacturer to blame (RME, Fabfilter, Presonus) besides Apple.

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

Hi RME,

I think everyone who is reading through this forum is getting both confused and frustrated by this issue. If the 2018 model of Macbook Pro (T2 chip) is incompatible with USB interfaces that is fine, but we need to know what other solutions there are to our problems here, and how we can best upgrade our systems to function without issue.

So far there seems to be a good deal of engaged debate from users around this, but I can only imagine how many passive readers are scrolling through and tearing their hair out (like me). Most people working in the audio industry are time poor, and have invested large amounts of money into companies that can provide solutions and fixes to issues that impact workflow in a reasonable time frame.

From my perspective, I think there needs to be an official statement regarding this issue and a dedicated page with work arounds or alternative system configurations that function without any issues - I completely see why this hasn't happened yet considering the look it presents, but seeing as it's affecting a large number of users, I think it might look better than all this speculation on the forum.

Thanks,

L

155

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

Totally agree with this!

Luboku wrote:

Hi RME,

...

Thanks,

L

156

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

You can get a clue here:

https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopi … 66#p136666

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

157

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

Further long time testing showed that a TB3 dock like the CalDigit mentioned in the above link requires slightly increased Safety Offset buffers (12 samples on both record and playback side) to avoid single sample misses at lower buffer settings. These cause no error indication or message and either stay unnoticed or cause only a very slight click sound. The changed Safety Offset is found in driver version 3.13, which can be downloaded here:

http://www.rme-audio.de/download/driver_usb_mac_314.zip

Edit: v3.13 has been replaced with 3.14 as playback did not start at all in certain situations.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

Thanks MC, particularly for the official statement on the failure of 'internal' USB 2.0.  Apple should be ashamed of screwing up such an established format for no good reason, and it adds insult to injury that audio pros have to buy a £100 hub to go with the market's most expensive laptop!

MC wrote:

These cause no error indication or message and either stay unnoticed or cause only a very slight click sound.

Just to clarify, when do these click sounds occur?

Eastwood Records
www.eastwoodrecords.co.uk

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

Connecting Babyface Pro directly to 2018 Macbook Pro via adapter cable and working fine with latest 3.14 driver.

Should I be hearing clicks? Would these only occur on playback, or will they get embedded in recordings too?

Does the increased Safety Offset on 3.14 Driver add to the latency? (I know it's only 12 samples...)

(Macbook Pro 2018 2.9 GHz i9, OSX 10.13.6, Logic 10.4.3 on 128 sample buffer)

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

Do you mean you're connecting the BFP directly to MBP 2018 with the supplied USB cable and USB-c adapter?

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

I'm connecting the BFP and MBP 2018 directly with a USB-C to USB-B Cable:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B071KSTHYV? … E_301_dt_1

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

jeremy.bernstein wrote:

Frankly, and no doubt this will be an unpopular sentiment, the finger-pointing is getting tired. I don't care whose fault it is, and even if it is Apple's fault, RME should be bending over backward to figure out a workaround or work with Apple to find a real solution. Simply kicking the can down the road isn't really very solution-oriented.

(This... one hundred times this. Apple doesn't care. There are obviously other DA devices out there which don't suffer from this problem. BFP is expensive enough that people who would shell out for one, would plausibly jump to a substitute instead of enduring unacceptable performance (made worse by finger pointing.) This, for better or worse, fair or not, makes it RME's problem to solve.)

3.14, for me (2018 MBP, 2.6G i7,) features less drop-outs than 3.10, but the drop-outs still exist (in Reason and Chrome (? and iTunes ?))

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

quarkdoll wrote:

There are obviously other DA devices out there which don't suffer from this problem.

Which USB 2 devices by other manufacturers have overcome the ‘iBridge’ limitations outlined by RME?

Eastwood Records
www.eastwoodrecords.co.uk

164

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

He's just trolling.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

mjfe87 wrote:
quarkdoll wrote:

There are obviously other DA devices out there which don't suffer from this problem.

Which USB 2 devices by other manufacturers have overcome the ‘iBridge’ limitations outlined by RME?

By "this problem" I wasn't specifically speaking to the USB issue (although when using my Traktor Kontrol S4 MK2 as a DA, I have not experienced dropouts - from a technical standpoint I have zero idea whether this should fall afoul of the the "iBridge limitations" problem;) I was speaking to "do there exist DA solutions which are not exhibiting this problem?" (the answer to which seems to be "yes - people with thunderbolt interfaces appear to be exempt." - please correct me if I'm wrong.)

To rephrase my original message hopefully more succinctly.

1. Apple (historically speaking) has not been a great company for fixing problems (that their Bug Reporter triage employees verge on obstinate is a 'known fact' to developers external and internal.) There's a played-out reason why musicians often keep their studio machine on an archaic but working-for-them version of OS X.
2. Users who "need a DA that works problem free" and have the means to shell out for something lower-mid-range-price-wise like the BFP will likely have the means to shell out for an alternative.
3. From a business perspective, this puts the problem 99.9% in RME's court; they can't wait for an indefinite period of time hoping Apple will fix it, assuming that their users will tolerate audio problems - especially users who derive their income utilizing their DA.

I know we live in an era where it's common and easy to discount disagreeable views as fake or trolling, but if you, MC, still think that this straightforward business logic is "trolling," perhaps that attitude is part of the problem here.

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

quarkdoll wrote:

3.14, for me (2018 MBP, 2.6G i7,) features less drop-outs than 3.10, but the drop-outs still exist (in Reason and Chrome (? and iTunes ?))

For me 3.14 hasn't made any difference with the drop-outs. They're just as frequent as before.

I've tried all the various workarounds posted here and elsewhere, and nothing has really made any impact.

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

amc654 wrote:

I've tried all the various workarounds posted here and elsewhere, and nothing has really made any impact.

Have you tried a true Thunderbolt 3 hub?

We just got the Caldigit HDMI mini hub yesterday and so far it’s eliminated the v regular glitches with the ADI-2 Pro.

I’ll report back when I’ve tested more extensively with 3.14, recording etc.

I’m delighted to have found a solution though I’m keen to maintain pressure on Apple to fix. I wonder if RME have approached Focusrite, Apogee etc about the problem? Apple may take more notice if audio specialist developers present a united front.

Eastwood Records
www.eastwoodrecords.co.uk

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

Is someone able to confirm that an TB3 Hub also eliminates the problems with the Babyface pro?

to be honest THIS is something i would like to hear from the rme guys, this is something you could test and propose as a workaround. even if you are not fully to blame, this is really not a good service, just to sit it out. you could get in touch with apple much easier than the average customer and keep the community informed about the issues and if there is something on the way.

i mean we really talking pro audio stuff here, i hoped that real issues would also be handeld PRO. at least warn new customers on your page, that an entire BUS is not working correctly with newest Macbooks.

169

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

And then get sued by Apple - what universe do you live in? We are a small company compared to that multi-Billion Dollar giant.

> Is someone able to confirm that an TB3 Hub also eliminates the problems with the Babyface pro? to be honest THIS is something i would like to hear from the rme guys

That is absolutely clearly written here in post 156.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

170 (edited by ramses 2019-01-09 18:39:48)

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

The root cause lies fully at Apple as also other companies experience the same issues with their audio drivers.

And I wouldn't be surprised if they have the same communication problems with Apple as you as an end customer.

According to my observations of the last 10+ years, Apple only does something for its customers with hardware defects or software problems when many users are affected and the matter has a high visibility on the Internet / in magazines. Or if Apple has to do it on its own initiative or interest.

I regard this not as a dedicated Apple problem, also Microsoft stated some years ago that we ought to love Windows 10 .. yes sure, I love my little spy with too rapid changes in a 6 month cycle ;-)

But .. why did you update your system without testing it or at least having a working backup?

With a working backup you should be able to restore your system to the state when everything still worked.
After that you only need to take care, that you do not update your system until you know that the issue is solved.

For this reason, it makes sense to have either a test system or at least a second hard disk with parallel installation on which you can try out fixes or updates without affecting your main system. Or you need a working backup to quickly get back to the previous working state.

Therefore I installed a backup software on my Windows system that allows me to restore the old state in less than 10-15 minutes (via disk image with an optimized restore procedure that only rewrites changed disk blocks). So I can restore 500 GB to the previous state in this short time. I think Apple will have something compareable.

Bad things can always happen in IT, and it's your responsibility to keep your system running properly, adequate to its importance for your business, and to ensure that working backup and recovery procedures are in place.

BR
Ramses
Win7 Prof, CubPro9.5, UFX+, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS/DAC, RayDAT, ARC USB, Sonnet USB3-PRO-4PM-E

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

MC wrote:

And then get sued by Apple - what universe do you live in? We are a small company compared to that multi-Billion Dollar giant.

> Is someone able to confirm that an TB3 Hub also eliminates the problems with the Babyface pro? to be honest THIS is something i would like to hear from the rme guys

That is absolutely clearly written here in post 156.

Are you really thinking your customers read through 156 posts on your forum before buying one of your products to inform themselves about possible incompatibilities?

Why would you get sued by Apple if you simply state that your USB interfaces are currently not 100% compatible with the newest MacBook Pros and Mac Mini? (Not on Post #156 in some Forum but at a more visible place on your Website.)

ramses wrote:

But .. why did you update your system without testing it or at least having a working backup?

If I may answer on this: 1) the issue we are discussing here is a hardware problem 2) it is not possible to install older operating systems on the newest Macs. You can only downgrade a Mac to the OS it originally came with.

Having a working backup in this case means having old hardware at hand, but buying a new computer is often necessary because the old hardware is no longer capable of doing the job.

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

hselters wrote:
MC wrote:

And then get sued by Apple - what universe do you live in? We are a small company compared to that multi-Billion Dollar giant.

> Is someone able to confirm that an TB3 Hub also eliminates the problems with the Babyface pro? to be honest THIS is something i would like to hear from the rme guys

That is absolutely clearly written here in post 156.

Are you really thinking your customers read through 156 posts on your forum before buying one of your products to inform themselves about possible incompatibilities?

Why would you get sued by Apple if you simply state that your USB interfaces are currently not 100% compatible with the newest MacBook Pros and Mac Mini? (Not on Post #156 in some Forum but at a more visible place on your Website.)

ramses wrote:

But .. why did you update your system without testing it or at least having a working backup?

If I may answer on this: 1) the issue we are discussing here is a hardware problem 2) it is not possible to install older operating systems on the newest Macs. You can only downgrade a Mac to the OS it originally came with.

Having a working backup in this case means having old hardware at hand, but buying a new computer is often necessary because the old hardware is no longer capable of doing the job.


Didn´t even know what to say to this. But this would also be my point. At least give some kind of hint. There is no need to feel offended.

As Developers of Apple Software you must be part of some sort of developers programm at Apple and therefore have a more direct contact to this multi billion dollar giant. Nobody there gives a shit if a few people file a complaint about their not working audio interfaces. I just assume, it is a little bit different when a company knocks down their doors, even if it´s a smaller company. In Apples case it´s always smaller companys that knock at their doors ;-)

Concerning buying a new Mac...Why would you buy an old one, when you need a new one and no Company gives you a hint, that there might be problems. It´s always said, wait until the companys have testet the compatabillity. So if I watch at the rme Homepage it looks like this compatabillity is given.

173 (edited by ramses 2019-01-10 21:06:54)

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

creepels wrote:

As Developers of Apple Software you must be part of some sort of developers programm at Apple and therefore have a more direct contact to this multi billion dollar giant. Nobody there gives a shit if a few people file a complaint about their not working audio interfaces. I just assume, it is a little bit different when a company knocks down their doors, even if it´s a smaller company. In Apples case it´s always smaller companys that knock at their doors ;-)

I disagree. The real problem seems to be that Apple is not really interested to get bugreports from their customers (and also companies / vendors like RME are customers here).

Or do you have another explanation for the user report that we read in this or in another thread ?!

From memory: somebody opened a ticket at Apple support. 1st level support could not fix the issue, but instead of shifting it to 2nd level, Apple's 1st level told the customer, that he has no contact to 2nd level (!!! read this twice !!!) and finally closes the case.

No wonder that nothing happens on  Apple side, if they block the communication between customers and 2nd level by establishing no communication channels between 1st level and 2nd level (because 2nd or higher level support usually has the contact to devs). Normal companies do this to be able so solve burning issues..

It's IMHO neither RME's nor another companies task to fill this gap.

Development programs are good for other things, but this is not applicable here.

creepels wrote:

Concerning buying a new Mac...Why would you buy an old one, when you need a new one and no Company gives you a hint, that there might be problems. It´s always said, wait until the companys have testet the compatabillity. So if I watch at the rme  Homepage it looks like this compatabillity is given.

Usually this compatibility is given. If Apple should sell new systems which are not compliant to USB standards or releases bad updates of the OS, then they need to listen to their customers and fix it. As soon as this as been done, everything is solved.

I also think that it is the responsibility of Apple to better test their USB drivers and Hardware. USB is per design a multi-purpose interface to connect not only own but also 3rd party hardware. When Apple decides to equip their systems with USB, then it simply ought to work and if not, then they need to fix it, especially when customers are having problems.

My advice to you is to get tested turnkey systems for audio, then you do not have many of these problems. Then this preselection is being done by the vendor. Maybe you get even a support contract, so that they take care of the drivers and stuff on your system.

That it runs so bad now for Apple customers is a sad thing and I really wish you the best, that this bad situation will be fixed by Apple soon, because all this is in their responsibility.

IMHO It's not fair now to argue in a way as if RME didn't do well in this case. They have the same interest like you to get the issue solved quickly, but I think they also have issues with Apple, a company who seems to live in a Ivory Tower, according to how they treat customers.

BR
Ramses
Win7 Prof, CubPro9.5, UFX+, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS/DAC, RayDAT, ARC USB, Sonnet USB3-PRO-4PM-E

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

ramses wrote:

IMHO It's not fair now to argue in a way as if RME didn't do well in this case. They have the same interest like you to get the issue solved quickly, but I think they also have issues with Apple, a company who seems to live in a Ivory Tower, according to how they treat customers.

While I agree on your points regarding Apple and also on the point that the current issues are clearly not RME's fault, I still think the professional way in dealing with this is naming the problem / current incompatibility.
Other companies do this (e.g. Avid is clearly stating that ProTools is not compatible with Mojave yet, MOTU is mentioning that final compatibility testing is still on-going which is at least some sort of disclaimer / warning for their customers...)

175 (edited by ramses 2019-01-10 21:15:28)

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

Therefore Apple should clearly communicate their incompatibility issues.

> Avid is clearly stating that ProTools is not compatible with Mojave yet,

This sounds as if Avid has an issue tbh ...

> MOTU is mentioning that final compatibility testing is still on-going which is at least some
> sort of disclaimer / warning for their customers..

And this sounds, as if MOTU is unable to get it tested in time and / or still not able to fix final issues.

Everything like this sounds as if the vendor has issues, but not Apple.

BR
Ramses
Win7 Prof, CubPro9.5, UFX+, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS/DAC, RayDAT, ARC USB, Sonnet USB3-PRO-4PM-E

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

hselters wrote:

Other companies do this (e.g. Avid is clearly stating that ProTools is not compatible with Mojave yet, MOTU is mentioning that final compatibility testing is still on-going which is at least some sort of disclaimer / warning for their customers...)

There is quite a difference between stating your own product is not (yet) compatible with a platform and stating the platform is problematic, which appears to be the case here.... There is no RME issue here.

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

RME Support wrote:
hselters wrote:

Other companies do this (e.g. Avid is clearly stating that ProTools is not compatible with Mojave yet, MOTU is mentioning that final compatibility testing is still on-going which is at least some sort of disclaimer / warning for their customers...)

There is quite a difference between stating your own product is not (yet) compatible with a platform and stating the platform is problematic, which appears to be the case here.... There is no RME issue here.

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

But the point is that there IS actually an issue. We all know that you are not responsible, but there IS an Issue which is not communicated well and is not stated on the homepage. Which of course you can decide not to hint on. And we as customers can decide to not find that quite fair or helpful.

Isn´t it possible to tell us, if you are actually able to contact apple in any further way, than we as customers? Do you have any Information if the Issue is known at the right spots at Apple? I mean workarounds are nice and 150€ for an TB3 Hub are nice too. Not so nice is to know nothing.

One thing is important for me to say. I do like RME and I will not switch to any other audio stuff. In the long run I blame Apple who really seem to go downward spiral fast. I mean if I werent so upset about this situation one would have to laugh at a company of this reputation messing up USB support in 2018 and not getting it fixed for month.

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

RME Support wrote:
hselters wrote:

Other companies do this (e.g. Avid is clearly stating that ProTools is not compatible with Mojave yet, MOTU is mentioning that final compatibility testing is still on-going which is at least some sort of disclaimer / warning for their customers...)

There is quite a difference between stating your own product is not (yet) compatible with a platform and stating the platform is problematic, which appears to be the case here.... There is no RME issue here.

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Well, as a customer I am interested if my Mac works with my Audio-Interface and I will have to blame it on Apple and you if no one provides information on this or rather having websites which look like everything should be working fine.
In fact the new Macs are not working with your soundcards and that is not properly communicated. I fully understand that this must be super frustrating for you – but frankly speaking – you behave like a marriage partner who is not acknowledging your partner has cheated on you while just pretending everything is fine. In my opinion this is not a professional way in dealing with this issue.

179 (edited by ramses 2019-01-11 17:42:12)

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

There is no information missing. You know what the issue is. RME provided workarounds on driver level as good as possible and even tested some HW for mitigations (extension cabinets).

The only thing that is missing, that Apple takes care of the issue and behaves like any other professional IT company, to involve 2nd/last level to analyze the issue and to involve development.

You can also assume, that all other companies like RME (remember, not only RME recording customers have this problem !!!!)
also already contacted Apple on their level as good as they could. And you see what the outcome is .. nothing.

So .. If Apple decides to organize support in such a inappropriate way, then also any notes on webserver will be ignored.
Recording and video Editing market is relatively small, maybe another reason that Apple has not much pressure.

If it would hit me I would also be very disappointed like everybody, BUT ... I would simply be angry with myself, that I tested everything not well enough and that I bought this overpriced Apple HW.

At the end .. the only company that can fix your Apple problem is ... -> Apple.

BR
Ramses
Win7 Prof, CubPro9.5, UFX+, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS/DAC, RayDAT, ARC USB, Sonnet USB3-PRO-4PM-E

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

Just to correct your misapprehensions about developing for Apple: Apple-registered developers (who pay additional for the membership and support incidents) can use incidents to elevate critical problems they come across during development for the platform via a priority support channel. We've used that channel numerous times at my company (audio software development) and have received prompt, attentive and knowledgable responses to our inquiries. Whether the bugs we found ever got fixed, well, that's not necessary directly related to whether or not Apple knows about or admits to having the bug in question. But it's false to assert that they don't pay attention, or are too big to care.

No doubt they are aware of the issue and are busily running cost-benefit analyses to determine whether it affects enough users, or requires a hardware redesign or whatever. More user complaints will obviously influence those analyses, so keep sending them in.

181 (edited by ramses 2019-01-11 23:09:28)

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

So you need to pay additional money so that Apple starts listening to you and troubleshooting / doing their job ?

All that I say is, if you are dissatisfied, then go to Apple and tell THEM your dissatisfaction.

BR
Ramses
Win7 Prof, CubPro9.5, UFX+, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS/DAC, RayDAT, ARC USB, Sonnet USB3-PRO-4PM-E

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

It's no more or less fair than you'll find at Microsoft, Intel or any other large technology company. It's just the way a large organization with a massive technology stack functions. Changing something fundamental about the operation of the USB port isn't something to be taken lightly and even if they determine that it's something they need to fix, and even assuming that the change can be accomplished in software, it's going to require massive testing to ensure that whatever they change for the audio use case doesn't break 5 other things which relied on the previous behavior.

Presumably RME has done their homework and demonstrated to Apple that they are violating a specification for how the port or bus is documented as working, but that's just a guess, since RME isn't all that talkative either. Assuming that's the case, and assuming that Apple is able to fix the problem without a hardware redesign, my guess is that it'll be fixed at some point. If the problem isn't a spec violation, but just an annoying feature of how Apple's ports work or don't work under certain load conditions, then it's anyone's guess.

But hey, it sounds like everyone is more or less just guessing. I picked up a CalDigit box and it seems to be working well, in any case, so big thanks to RME for doing that research and finding a workaround. I agree that the potential problems + workaround should be displayed more prominently on the website, though -- no potential customer will think worse of you for being forthcoming and clear about what they can expect from the product on particular platforms.

183 (edited by mjfe87 2019-01-12 09:56:53)

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

jeremy.bernstein wrote:

No doubt they are aware of the issue and are busily running cost-benefit analyses to determine whether it affects enough users, or requires a hardware redesign or whatever. More user complaints will obviously influence those analyses, so keep sending them in.

Thanks Jeremy for the sound words. This seems most important to me as I imagine more users are tempted to complain on a forum than officially through Apple.

I can understand the frustration here though. It seems as if Apple have broken something that used to work, so it’d be nice to know how port performance is regulated in the developer world (I asked this above).

Also, whilst I take your point about large companies managing priorities there’s no doubt Apple’s tech support on the phone is cynical. It’s a double edged sword for RME because as soon as I told Apple that RME’s CEO had taken the bold move to publicly concede that usb 2 no longer works, he closed the case as if that was proof it wasn’t Apple’s mistake.

Eastwood Records
www.eastwoodrecords.co.uk

184 (edited by jeremy.bernstein 2019-01-14 08:42:10)

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

mjfe87 wrote:
jeremy.bernstein wrote:

No doubt they are aware of the issue and are busily running cost-benefit analyses to determine whether it affects enough users, or requires a hardware redesign or whatever. More user complaints will obviously influence those analyses, so keep sending them in.

Thanks Jeremy for the sound words. This seems most important to me as I imagine more users are tempted to complain on a forum than officially through Apple.

This. Apple definitely doesn't read this forum, at least not in any official capacity. Developers filing bugs (bugreport.apple.com) and users filing support tickets are the only ways to go here.

I can understand the frustration here though. It seems as if Apple have broken something that used to work, so it’d be nice to know how port performance is regulated in the developer world (I asked this above).

Also, whilst I take your point about large companies managing priorities there’s no doubt Apple’s tech support on the phone is cynical. It’s a double edged sword for RME because as soon as I told Apple that RME’s CEO had taken the bold move to publicly concede that usb 2 no longer works, he closed the case as if that was proof it wasn’t Apple’s mistake.

Just for the record, I agree 100% with the frustration. I just got a new laptop after 5 years and all the improvements are essentially wiped out by this issue, at least when it comes to music-making with my RME interface, which worked fine on 2013 hardware. I'm merely trying to maintain perspective.

As far as I know, Apple tech support/Expert bars/etc. are all managed in such as a way as to reward closing out tickets over actually solving problems. If you look at the majority of reported issues on Apple's own forums, you'll quickly understand why that is.

That, and "expertise" is relative -- the tech support folks are simply not equipped to troubleshoot or solve a driver- or hardware-level problem (unless it's a total failure of, say, a keyboard), especially a subtle problem like this, which involves the USB 2.0 mode of a USB 3.1 driver on some hardware bus using a USB-C hardware port. Anyway, I get that spending hours on the phone with someone who will not be able to help you is annoying. It might help RME's case in the long run, though.

185 (edited by rodrigo.constanzo 2019-01-17 13:55:11)

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

So after having nothing but problems (4+ repairs) on my 2017 MBP I've been offered a 2018 machine as a replacement, which is currently en route to me.

After being told about RME driver problems by another friend I have been looking into it and came across this (and the various other) threads.

Are these disparate forum posts the only "official" statement from RME on the problem?

And because I haven't read anything about it across any of the threads I've read, some specific questions:
What exactly is the problem? Is it a hardware or software issue?
Have RME made Apple aware of the problem? (edit: saw an answer to this in another thread)
Has there been any response from Apple (to RME or otherwise) about the problem?
Is there a specific name/case number to the issue that can be used when speaking with Apple support about the problem?

And regarding the post made in this thread (https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopi … 66#p136666), are those the only current workarounds?
I've seen mention of just use class-compliant mode, or disabling specific networking settings, or disabling some T2 functionality, but since there appears to be no single unified and official statement, it's unclear what the actual problem is, and what the available solutions are.

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

rodrigo.constanzo wrote:

So after having nothing but problems (4+ repairs) on my 2017 MBP I've been offered a 2018 machine as a replacement, which is currently en route to me.

After being told about RME driver problems by another friend I have been looking into it and came across this (and the various other) threads.

Are these disparate forum posts the only "official" statement from RME on the problem?

And because I haven't read anything about it across any of the threads I've read, some specific questions:
What exactly is the problem? Is it a hardware or software issue?
Have RME made Apple aware of the problem? (edit: saw an answer to this in another thread)
Has there been any response from Apple (to RME or otherwise) about the problem?
Is there a specific name/case number to the issue that can be used when speaking with Apple support about the problem?

And regarding the post made in this thread (https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopi … 66#p136666), are those the only current workarounds?
I've seen mention of just use class-compliant mode, or disabling specific networking settings, or disabling some T2 functionality, but since there appears to be no single unified and official statement, it's unclear what the actual problem is, and what the available solutions are.

Don´t expect too much clearance on this regard. RME is afraid of getting sued and Apple is just counting money. Short answer would be: If u have an USB AUdio Interface then don´t get the 2018 Macbook.

187 (edited by Astro 2019-01-20 14:01:56)

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

Guys - my 2013 MBP is failing with a swollen battery and I need a new laptop. I was looking at a 15" 2018 MacBook Pro because they are on special where I live for the next couple of days. I own a Babyface Pro. Are we saying here that this is not going to work for me or is there some hub that people have worked out will work with it vs some that won't. If there's a hub that will work please let me know so I can work out what to purchase and get this MBP on special. I was reading above something about a TB3 hub will work is that a Thunderbolt 3 hub and can it be any brand?

**EDIT** I found a thread that mentioned a Caldigit and Elgato hub - is that the answer. They aren't very cheap - you could almost buy an el-cheapo interface for the price (well not quite but close). I'd want to know that they were bulletproof with the Babyface Pro before I bought one.

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

rodrigo.constanzo wrote:

After being told about RME driver problems by another friend I have been looking into it and came across this (and the various other) threads.

Sorry, but RME has no driver problems.

The issues that Apple has can not be fixed / worked around on 3rd party driver level.
RME could only mitigate the effects to allow for a quicker resync after disconnect.

According to the current informations the situation is this:

Apple has two severe issues:
1. USB issues with Mojave USB stack generally
2. USB HW issues on Macbook Pro 2018, there is no USB port useable for audio.

to 1. (and I think also 2.)
- also Motu and other vendors of recording gear have the same problems with it.

to 1) Apples USB stack in Mojave seems to be so broken, that even their own drivers do not work anymore,
when you operate the devices in pure Class Compliant mode (without any RME driver in use).

In this or another thread a link to Motu Forum has been posted, where you can see it with your own eyes.
In regards to other vendors this has been mentioned by RME, I assume based on their own research in this issue.

to 2. RME tested inexpensive thunderbolt docks with own USB infrastructure, it's not so expensive and then the problems shall disappear, see other RME post.

BR
Ramses
Win7 Prof, CubPro9.5, UFX+, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS/DAC, RayDAT, ARC USB, Sonnet USB3-PRO-4PM-E

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

Astro wrote:

I found a thread that mentioned a Caldigit and Elgato hub - is that the answer. They aren't very cheap - you could almost buy an el-cheapo interface for the price (well not quite but close). I'd want to know that they were bulletproof with the Babyface Pro before I bought one.

I can confirm the Caldigit T3 hub has been flawless for us.

It’d be false economy to assume a cheaper interface will sound as good or last as long as a German-made RME device.

Eastwood Records
www.eastwoodrecords.co.uk

190 (edited by Astro 2019-01-20 21:56:17)

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

mjfe87 wrote:

I can confirm the Caldigit T3 hub has been flawless for us.

Can you please name the exact product for me I'm on the Caldigit website and i'm not sure which one of their products it is precisely.

They seem to have two mini hubs of which I think the "CalDigit mini Dock Dual HDMI" has the most USB ports and a TS3 Plus from what I can see. The price of the TS3 Plus is eye watering - I'm retired.

Honestly this has me considering changing from Logic pro and going to Windows - which I would have thought was unthinkable only yesterday.

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

ramses wrote:

The issues that Apple has can not be fixed / worked around on 3rd party driver level.
RME could only mitigate the effects to allow for a quicker resync after disconnect.

According to the current informations the situation is this:

Apple has two severe issues:
1. USB issues with Mojave USB stack generally
2. USB HW issues on Macbook Pro 2018, there is no USB port useable for audio.

to 1. (and I think also 2.)
- also Motu and other vendors of recording gear have the same problems with it.

to 1) Apples USB stack in Mojave seems to be so broken, that even their own drivers do not work anymore,
when you operate the devices in pure Class Compliant mode (without any RME driver in use).

to 2. RME tested inexpensive thunderbolt docks with own USB infrastructure, it's not so expensive and then the problems shall disappear, see other RME post.

Thanks for the response. By "driver problem" I mean that "stuff isn't working", not necessarily putting blame on anyone.

I've read this, and various other threads (as well as ones on the motu forums, macrumors, and gearslutz). But as I mentioned in my original post, it's all bits and pieces of information scattered everywhere.

It would be great to read a detailed and unified response from RME (and MOTU, but this is an RME forum).

I also wouldn't call the Caldigit hub an "inexpensive thunderbolt dock" (>£100), not to mention I saw in some thread, something about adding an addition 13samples of leeway to the record and playback as a safety buffer. That could have been about a different solution, but again, there's no one place for all this information, and I've read hundreds of posts already, and I don't really want to read them all again to double check for a little fragment of information.


ramses wrote:

2. USB HW issues on Macbook Pro 2018, there is no USB port useable for audio.

By this do you mean as a subset of problem #1? As in, if they fixed the USB stack, there would be working USB ports, or is there a separate/distinct problem with the physical hardware that renders it functionally useless for audio? (regardless of drivers, USB stack, etc...)

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

rodrigo.constanzo wrote:
ramses wrote:

The issues that Apple has can not be fixed / worked around on 3rd party driver level.
RME could only mitigate the effects to allow for a quicker resync after disconnect.

According to the current informations the situation is this:

Apple has two severe issues:
1. USB issues with Mojave USB stack generally
2. USB HW issues on Macbook Pro 2018, there is no USB port useable for audio.

to 1. (and I think also 2.)
- also Motu and other vendors of recording gear have the same problems with it.

to 1) Apples USB stack in Mojave seems to be so broken, that even their own drivers do not work anymore,
when you operate the devices in pure Class Compliant mode (without any RME driver in use).

to 2. RME tested inexpensive thunderbolt docks with own USB infrastructure, it's not so expensive and then the problems shall disappear, see other RME post.

Thanks for the response. By "driver problem" I mean that "stuff isn't working", not necessarily putting blame on anyone.

I've read this, and various other threads (as well as ones on the motu forums, macrumors, and gearslutz). But as I mentioned in my original post, it's all bits and pieces of information scattered everywhere.

It would be great to read a detailed and unified response from RME (and MOTU, but this is an RME forum).

I also wouldn't call the Caldigit hub an "inexpensive thunderbolt dock" (>£100), not to mention I saw in some thread, something about adding an addition 13samples of leeway to the record and playback as a safety buffer. That could have been about a different solution, but again, there's no one place for all this information, and I've read hundreds of posts already, and I don't really want to read them all again to double check for a little fragment of information.


ramses wrote:

2. USB HW issues on Macbook Pro 2018, there is no USB port useable for audio.

By this do you mean as a subset of problem #1? As in, if they fixed the USB stack, there would be working USB ports, or is there a separate/distinct problem with the physical hardware that renders it functionally useless for audio? (regardless of drivers, USB stack, etc...)

See this posting: https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopi … 66#p136666

BR
Ramses
Win7 Prof, CubPro9.5, UFX+, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS/DAC, RayDAT, ARC USB, Sonnet USB3-PRO-4PM-E

193

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

Which Caldigit Hub guys? Please! The mini with two USB ports I assume because the big one is like $500

194 (edited by rodrigo.constanzo 2019-01-21 09:57:32)

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

Yeah, I've seen that post. A single forum post in a thread about distorted audio on the 2018 Mac Minis. I've seen several people link to it as being the general response, applying to the MacBook Pros as well, but there's nothing in that post (or elsewhere) that I've seen that officially clarifies that to be the case.

This is apparently an issue that impacts all of their USB-based interfaces on the 2018 machines.

It also doesn't say what the problem is, nor whether it is software or hardware based (or both).

Thankfully I have a thunderbolt hub which appears to meet all the criteria mentioned in that post, which also happens to cost significantly less than the Caldigit hub:
https://www.hypershop.com/collections/u … k-air-2018

So hopefully that works for the time being, if it is in fact a matter of "time being", because it's not clear that this is an issue that will be fixed, effectively rendering my RME useless (without an intermediary hardware dongle).

195

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

That link is useless as it points to no specific product. And the products presented there are as far as I see USB-C to USB solutions, not Thunderbolt to USB.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

196 (edited by Astro 2019-01-21 03:59:45)

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

MC wrote:

That link is useless as it points to no specific product. And the products presented there are as far as I see USB-C to USB solutions, not Thunderbolt to USB.

MC - I'm looking at this - is this correct?

CalDigit Type-C Thunderbolt 3 Mini Dock w/ Dual HDMI Ethernet & USB

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/CalDigit-Ty … :rk:1:pf:0

197

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

We gave a link to the docks and there are only two of them. Both work. I will not comment on ebay offers.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

198

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

MC wrote:

We gave a link to the docks and there are only two of them. Both work. I will not comment on ebay offers.

I didn't mean to do anything wrong - I'm in Australia - that's how I normally get stuff. Is there something wrong with using eBay?

199

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

Well thanks for helping me out - I just asked a simple question. A user looking for support should not have to read the whole knowledge base - especially since I've done my best. I'm no techo - I'm an older user doing his best to work out what to do in what seems like a minefield. I'm not a pro audio engineer - I'm just a guitarist. Give me a break please and at least tell me if the product I was looking at seems correct.

200 (edited by Astro 2019-01-21 06:32:21)

Re: What's the verdict on current Macbook Pros + USB RME interfaces?

Also when saying that post 156 absolutely answers the question of whether a thunderbolt interface will work with a MBP it doesn't! it points to a thread about MacBook Mini's and says it works with them. How are we supposed to know that a Mac Mini solution is going to work with MacBook Pro architecture.