• Registered: 2018-08-24
  • Posts: 33

Topic: Gain/level difference between UFX analog output 0,1 and 2,3?

I`m using the UFX as a DA-converter for use with a 4way active speaker system. Using Audiolense for generating  crossovers, eq and room correction. Yesterday I did a few measuremens, and noticed that here was about 3dB difference in output between the XLR outputs 0 and 1, and the TRS outputs 2 and 3. I swapped cables, and no doubt, The TRS is about 3dB more than the XLR. I`m new to both Total mix, and Audiolense, and so far I can`t locate the problem. The cables are DIY, and connected according to the UFX manual (page 115).

2 Reply by Labdoc (edited by Labdoc 2019-01-26 21:54:16)

  • From: Canada
  • Registered: 2016-02-11
  • Posts: 75

Re: Gain/level difference between UFX analog output 0,1 and 2,3?

I use UFX in the same manner you are setting up. No problem w channel level matching. Check that the gain setting in the bottom row is the same for all channels you use. ie Hardware Outputs row, Analog 1/2 and 3/4, click on the wrench icon for each and confirm -10dBV is selected. Of course, the sliders need to be the same for all 4 outputs.

On the middle row software levels, with the hardware channel selected, be sure that the sliders are correct. For example, if Hdwe AN1/2 is selected as output, the AN1/2 Software playback middle row should be 0 dB. Similarly, highlight AN3/4 hdwe out and AN3/4 software and make 0 dB.

UFX+; MADIfaceUSB; Startech active USB3 cable; Sonnet Allegro Pro adapter; Win11x64

3 Reply by cyberkul (edited by cyberkul 2019-01-26 22:06:17)

  • Registered: 2018-08-24
  • Posts: 33

Re: Gain/level difference between UFX analog output 0,1 and 2,3?

Yes, they are the same, and connected in a fader group. Why -10dBV? I have mine set to +4dBu. All playback sliders are set to 0dB. I don`t see AN1/2 on the bottom row, they are assigned as main. Something there maybe?

  • From: Canada
  • Registered: 2016-02-11
  • Posts: 75

Re: Gain/level difference between UFX analog output 0,1 and 2,3?

Channel labels: you can set to your preference at Options > Channel Layout.
Or, and I recommend this, do a reset. Options > Reset Mix > Total Reset. First, save your current workspace so you can recover: File Save Workspace As.
-10 dB is what I chose. Whatever works for you and is the same in all relevant channels. AN1/2 has available +24 dBu that is not available on other channels.
I strongly recommend tonheat's blog tutorials. They include DE and EN translations
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … ernal-equi
and
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … al-Videos/

UFX+; MADIfaceUSB; Startech active USB3 cable; Sonnet Allegro Pro adapter; Win11x64
  • Registered: 2018-08-24
  • Posts: 33

Re: Gain/level difference between UFX analog output 0,1 and 2,3?

Thanks! I`ll look into the tutorials, and do a Total Reset.

6 Reply by cyberkul (edited by cyberkul 2019-01-30 20:13:01)

  • Registered: 2018-08-24
  • Posts: 33

Re: Gain/level difference between UFX analog output 0,1 and 2,3?

Did a total reset, and a UFX factory reset. Did a new Audiolense measurement, and nothing has changed. Still about 3dB lower on the XLR outputs.

  • Registered: 2018-08-24
  • Posts: 33

Re: Gain/level difference between UFX analog output 0,1 and 2,3?

Updated fimware, no change. Can anyone confirm that all outputs should have the same gain? (all set at +4dBu).

  • From: Germany
  • Registered: 2007-04-10
  • Posts: 9,551

Re: Gain/level difference between UFX analog output 0,1 and 2,3?

No differences:

DA, Line Out 3-8, rear
Output level switchable Hi Gain, +4 dBu, -10 dBV
Output level at 0 dBFS @ Hi Gain: +19 dBu
Output level at 0 dBFS @ +4 dBu: +13 dBu
Output level at 0 dBFS @ -10 dBV: +2 dBV


DA - Stereo Monitor Output XLR (1-2)
As DA, but:
Output: XLR, balanced
Output level switchable 24 dBu, Hi Gain, +4 dBu, -10 dBV
Output level at 0 dBFS @ 24 dBu: +24 dBu

How exactly is this cabled? Are these balanced connections?


Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

RME Support's Website

9 Reply by cyberkul (edited by cyberkul 2019-02-10 23:24:40)

  • Registered: 2018-08-24
  • Posts: 33

Re: Gain/level difference between UFX analog output 0,1 and 2,3?

RME Support wrote:

No differences:

DA, Line Out 3-8, rear
Output level switchable Hi Gain, +4 dBu, -10 dBV
Output level at 0 dBFS @ Hi Gain: +19 dBu
Output level at 0 dBFS @ +4 dBu: +13 dBu
Output level at 0 dBFS @ -10 dBV: +2 dBV


DA - Stereo Monitor Output XLR (1-2)
As DA, but:
Output: XLR, balanced
Output level switchable 24 dBu, Hi Gain, +4 dBu, -10 dBV
Output level at 0 dBFS @ 24 dBu: +24 dBu

How exactly is this cabled? Are these balanced connections?


Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Hi!
Yes, all balanced connections, cables DIY and connected according to the UFX manual (page 115).

Repeated the measurement with the REW software yesterday, to check if I have missed some setting in Audiolense. But the result is the same, about 4dB more output from TRS than XLR. Used XLR output 2, and TRS output 6.

Did the first measurement with the XLR-cable plugged into output 2, and the other end of the cable (also XLR) into the poweramp. Then changed output channel to 6 in REW, and also swapped the cables in the power amp end. The mic was not moved. I have a picture of the result, but it seems that I can`t upload pictures here?

  • Registered: 2018-08-24
  • Posts: 33

Re: Gain/level difference between UFX analog output 0,1 and 2,3?

Hm.. could this be caused by the way I have set up the outputs? I have assigned Main to AN1/2, and included Main, AN3/4, AN5/6 and AN7/8 in a fader group.

  • Registered: 2018-08-24
  • Posts: 33

Re: Gain/level difference between UFX analog output 0,1 and 2,3?

Changed the level to High Gain on output 1, and the measurement from REW increased 6dB as it should.   If this is a hardware issue, what would be a suitable way to troubleshoot?

12 Reply by MC

  • MC
  • MC
  • Administrator
  • Offline
  • From: Germany/Thailand
  • Registered: 2007-04-06
  • Posts: 24,844

Re: Gain/level difference between UFX analog output 0,1 and 2,3?

Is the level on XLR the same over the whole frequency range? A pic of TM FX showing your fader group might be helpful.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

13 Reply by cyberkul (edited by cyberkul 2019-02-19 23:39:15)

  • Registered: 2018-08-24
  • Posts: 33

Re: Gain/level difference between UFX analog output 0,1 and 2,3?

Hi! Here comes some pictures. I did some more measurements today. I connected the outputs directly to mic input 9, and measured the response in REW. I notice that there is still a difference between the XLR-outputs and the TRS, but only about 0,4dB. Verified that the difference is still about 4,5dB recording the sweep with the mic.

Is there a difference in output impedance between the XLR and the TRS outputs? My power amps are Anaview class D-modules that have low input impedance. I have U-pads between the RME outputs and the power amp inputs, and these have about 500 ohms input impedanse. The second picture shows the difference between XLR and TRS when directly connected to the mic input 9, and the third picture shows the same, zoomed out, together with recorded sweep with mic from XLR and TRS.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1V7TmC … 8kwKFN8y1A

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1TrTxb … jgnm2Vrq8U

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1g23nI … nvDTMV06_b

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 12,072

Re: Gain/level difference between UFX analog output 0,1 and 2,3?

The URLs do not work, maybe you should try the url tags...

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
  • Registered: 2018-08-24
  • Posts: 33

Re: Gain/level difference between UFX analog output 0,1 and 2,3?

They work here, right click and choose, "open image in new tab", but I changed to the URL-tab anyway :-) Is it possible to embed the picture directly in the post?

16 Reply by MC

  • MC
  • MC
  • Administrator
  • Offline
  • From: Germany/Thailand
  • Registered: 2007-04-06
  • Posts: 24,844

Re: Gain/level difference between UFX analog output 0,1 and 2,3?

The loopback cabling prooves that the UFX is working correctly. Your attenuator has a too low impedance and interacts with the impedance of the UFX outputs.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

  • Registered: 2018-08-24
  • Posts: 33

Re: Gain/level difference between UFX analog output 0,1 and 2,3?

MC wrote:

The loopback cabling prooves that the UFX is working correctly. Your attenuator has a too low impedance and interacts with the impedance of the UFX outputs.

Yes, I agree. But this means that there is a difference between the output impedance on XLR and TRS?

I choose 500 Ohms for the Upad input impedance, because I read somewhere that minimum load on the RME outputs should be 500Ohms?

The Upads is a safety device, since there is no physical volume control in the system. The attenuate about 17dB. This is the least attenuation I could get and still keep the input about 500Ohms, and the output about 75Ohms.

18 Reply by MC

  • MC
  • MC
  • Administrator
  • Offline
  • From: Germany/Thailand
  • Registered: 2007-04-06
  • Posts: 24,844

Re: Gain/level difference between UFX analog output 0,1 and 2,3?

> But this means that there is a difference between the output impedance on XLR and TRS?

I just saw that XLR is not mentioned in the manual. Usually, and that is the case here as well, the output is double the impedance of the unbalanced  one. So it's 150 Ohms.

> I choose 500 Ohms for the Upad input impedance, because I read somewhere that minimum load on the RME outputs should be 500Ohms?

To prevent level attenuation the output load should be 2 kOhm (see the mic input that you used) or higher. To avoid clipping at highest level the output load should usually be greater than 1 kOhm, unless you have a dedicated low impedance output like for phones.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

  • Registered: 2018-08-24
  • Posts: 33

Re: Gain/level difference between UFX analog output 0,1 and 2,3?

Thanks!
At least the problem is solved. Must decide wether to ditch the Upads, or perhaps use an input buffer. I know many just connects the RME directly to the power amps with no problems, but I`m a bit hesitant, as my children also use the Hifi...

  • vinark
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2009-06-05
  • Posts: 2,655

Re: Gain/level difference between UFX analog output 0,1 and 2,3?

Could you not just leave it as is and lower (or raise) the proper output by 3db in totalmix (or audiolens maybe but I don't know if that is possible)?

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
Babyface pro fs, HDSP9652+ADI-8AE, HDSP9632
  • Registered: 2018-08-24
  • Posts: 33

Re: Gain/level difference between UFX analog output 0,1 and 2,3?

vinark wrote:

Could you not just leave it as is and lower (or raise) the proper output by 3db in totalmix (or audiolens maybe but I don't know if that is possible)?

Audiolense takes care of it, as long as I have enough gain in the system, so I really don`t have to do nothing. But It COULD perhaps have a bad influence on the sound quality? Also, The XLR outputs is output 1 and 2, and in the standard mapping in Audiolense this will be bass and midbass for the left speaker. It would be better if the XLR outputs were eg. bass left and right. This is posible by overriding the standard mapping, but you have to be careful..

  • vinark
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2009-06-05
  • Posts: 2,655

Re: Gain/level difference between UFX analog output 0,1 and 2,3?

You can easily map that in totalmix. Make the software outputs are mono and you can route them where you want. So SW ou1 to physical 1, Software out 2 to Physical out 3 etc.
I would not worry about sound quality but maybe MC knows more.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
Babyface pro fs, HDSP9652+ADI-8AE, HDSP9632
  • Registered: 2018-08-24
  • Posts: 33

Re: Gain/level difference between UFX analog output 0,1 and 2,3?

vinark wrote:

You can easily map that in totalmix. Make the software outputs are mono and you can route them where you want. So SW ou1 to physical 1, Software out 2 to Physical out 3 etc.
I would not worry about sound quality but maybe MC knows more.

Thanks!