Topic: MADI Router problem

I have just purchased a brand new MADI Router and am in the process of connecting everything up in the studio.

Unfortunately it does not work as expected: Some of the inputs do not recognise their signals as valid.

Here is my set up:

PORT A
optical:    HDSPe MADI Port 2
coax in:   HDSPe MADI Port 3 out
coax out: HDSPe MADI Port 3 in

PORT B
optical:    SPL Madison
coax in:   Euphonix AM713 #3 !
coax out: Euphonix MA703 #3 !

PORT C
optical:    SSL DeltaLink #3
coax in:   Euphonix AM713 #2 !
coax out: Euphonix MA703 #2 !

PORT D
optical:    SSL DeltaLink #2 !
coax in:   Euphonix AM713 #1 !
coax out: Euphonix MA703 #1 !

HDSPe MADI Port #1 and SSL DeltaLink #1 are connected directly.

The MADi Router does not see any of the Euphonix Converters at all. They are MADI-56 and each carry only half a MADI stream's worth of channels (28). It also does not recognise the second SSL DeltaLink.

When I plug the HDSPe coax and optical cables into the back of any of the ports I get green lights (on all the input LEDs and on the top row of the TFT display). So it appears that the ports on the router work fine.

The strange thing is that when I plug any of the connectors from the back of the router directly into the ports of the HDSPe card they are all recognised as well. But for whatever reason the router does not recognise the signals from the units above marked with an exclamation mark (!).

Before I had the router I had everything connected directly and it all worked fine. The router came pre-installed with the latest firmware 1.33b.

I am baffled why this is happening and cannot continue setting up my studio so any help is very much appreciated.

Re: MADI Router problem

Hello,
regardless of the 'valid' indicator, did you verify if a signal can actually pass a stream routing to a HDSPe MADI or MA703? If not, please change the transparency setting to 'bypass MADI receiver'. This allows the signal to pass regardless of its validity. If this still causes problems, I would check the cables and connectors.
What happens if you swap the two DeltaLinks?
Max

Re: MADI Router problem

Max wrote:

Hello,
regardless of the 'valid' indicator, did you verify if a signal can actually pass a stream routing to a HDSPe MADI or MA703? If not, please change the transparency setting to 'bypass MADI receiver'. This allows the signal to pass regardless of its validity. If this still causes problems, I would check the cables and connectors.
What happens if you swap the two DeltaLinks?
Max

Thank you for your reply, Max.
I had not realised that I could route streams that do not have their validity confirmed. I will try that. That would explain why the second DeltaLink did not show a valid signal.

I have swapped the DeltaLink for another (spare one) and that shows a green LED so I might keep it in place of the other one. So it's just the Euphonixes to go.

I will now attempt to put together the Matrix streams I need to make and will report back with my findings.

P.S. All cables have been checked and and are working fine.

Re: MADI Router problem

Max wrote:

Hello,
regardless of the 'valid' indicator, did you verify if a signal can actually pass a stream routing to a HDSPe MADI or MA703? If not, please change the transparency setting to 'bypass MADI receiver'. This allows the signal to pass regardless of its validity.
Max

This did the trick for the Euphonixes, thank you. However, I can only route audio if I send the full stream from one coax port (Euphonix) to another port (optical, Pro Tools). I can't route audio from a composed stream even if the routing is the exact same as when using a full stream.

Re: MADI Router problem

Also, it is dawning on me that I may not be able to achieve what I set out to achieve with the router:

My goal was to be able to merge all the Euphonix streams plus the Madison and send them into the available Pro Tools inputs on the DeltaLinks so that I would not be losing I/O due to the fact that the Euphonixes are MADI-56.

However, with the available four Matrices I will only ever be able to do this in one direction.

The plan was to combine (Pro Tools inputs)

  • 28ch of Euphonix #1 and Euphonix #2 plus 8ch of Euphonix #3 into a composed stream to DeltaLink#2

  • 16ch of Euphonix #3 plus 16ch of SPL Madison into a composed stream to DeltaLink #3 (last DeltaLink only supports 32ch max)

This can be accomplished using two Matrices.

The other way (Pro Tools outputs)

  • splitting the 64ch stream from DeltaLink #2 into 28ch each of Euphonix #1 and #2 plus 16ch of Euphonix #3

  • splitting the 32ch stream from DeltaLink #3 into 16ch of Euphonix #3 plus 16ch of SPL Madison

Unless I have missed something this will need four Matrices to accomplish.

So that means I cannot do what I set out to do with the MADI Router. If I have indeed missed something I would really appreciate some help - my head is spinning after trying to figure this out for a couple of days. But I can't see how I could make this work so it might mean having to send the router back which would be a shame.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Router Connections:

DeltaLink #1---------------------------HDSPe #1 (optical 64ch) direct connection, no router
DeltaLink #2---------------------------Router Port D Optical (64ch)
DeltaLink #3---------------------------Router Port C Optical (64ch, 32ch used)

Euphonix #1---------------------------Router Port D Coax (56ch, 28ch used)
Euphonix #2---------------------------Router Port C Coax (56ch, 28ch used)
Euphonix #3---------------------------Router Port B Coax (56ch, 28ch used)

SPl Madison----------------------------Router Port B Optical (64ch, 16ch used)
HDSPe Port #2-------------------------Router Port A Optical (64ch)
HDSPe Port #3-------------------------Router Port A Coax (64ch)

Re: MADI Router problem

Correct, composed streams cannot be created unless MADI receivers are active, therefore that setting needs to be changed back.

Regarding the return path:
splitting the DeltaLink #2 (D.opt) to Euphonix #1 (D.coax) and #2 (C.c) requires only one matrix, because hopefully the Euphonix #1 discards all channels that come after Channel 28 and can accept 64 Ch format. So a stream routing with all channels from DeltaLink #2 (d.o) to Euphonix #1  (D.c) might work.

Euphonix #2 (C.c) requires a matrix (3) to move ch. 29-56 of DeltaLink #2 (D.o) to ch. 1-28.

Euphonix #3 (B.c) requires a matrix (4) to move 8 Ch. (not 16, because 2*28=56) of Deltalink 2 (D.o) to Ch. 1-8, and 16 Ch. of Deltalink 3 (C.o) to Ch. 9-24. 

That leaves you with the channels that go to the SPL (B.o). The SPL can IMHO choose which MADI channels to use, so you could use the same matrix that you send to Euphonix #2, Ch. 33-48, but set the SPL to be 3rd in chain.

So the entire thing looks like this:
https://i.ibb.co/99t05FW/Screen-Shot-2019-03-12-at-14-17-31.png

But it totally depends on the Euphonix MADI implementation which I am not familiar with. The fact that the signals are detected as valid signals on the HDSPe card leaves me curious though.

Re: MADI Router problem

Thank you so much for your detailed response and willingness to help me with my problem, Max - it is very much appreciated!

Unfortunately, the Euphonixes are strictly MADI 56 only so the number of Matrices in the MADI router is not sufficient for me to do what I need to do. On top of that I could not get the Euphonixes to pass audio through a matrix stream whatever I tried so I ended up sending the router back.

I have since come to the conclusion that my current point to point setup is better (simpler). I am restricted by the number of I/O Pro Tools can address (160) and with six Euphonixes I am 12 channels short of what I could have with MADI 64 interfaces.

So it is apparent that Pro Tools is the bottleneck here. I am already running a native rig (with a HDSPe) connected to my PT HD rig for plug-in processing, etc. and my plan is to leave Pro Tools and switch to the native system in the long run.

I have realised that this can very easily be done by installing another HDSPe card in the native rig: That way I can connect all audio I/O to the native rig and have enough ports to connect the Pro Tools HD rig for FX and processing as well. This will even work at high sample rates (which I currently don't use) as the Euphonixes always output 28 channels - taking up a whole 56ch stream each at 96kHz).

So getting another card will be cheaper and more flexible compared to using a router - and it will be another incentive for me to switch to the native system!

The only unkown variable in this is how well a native system can cope with hundreds of HW inserts plus plug-in processing - and whether this will be achievable at a decent buffer size. This is where a DSP based system works very well and I hope that in 2019 it will be something I can do on a native rig without too many problems - but that is another conversation!

Thank you again for your input and for the PM you sent me!

Re: MADI Router problem

I am no prtools expert but I found this

More information

    Pro Tools | Ultimate software with HDX hardware supports up to 192 channels of I/O via DigiLink (3 HDX cards per system)
    Pro Tools | Ultimate software with HD Native hardware supports up to 64 channels of I/O via DigiLink
    Pro Tools | Ultimate software standalone supports up to 32 channels of I/O through Core Audio and ASIO
Sorry if I am off base...
Or are you not talking about going Protools native?

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
HDSP9652+ADI-8AE  2X HDSP9632
Cubase pro10

9 (edited by funkymothers 2019-03-15 16:23:37)

Re: MADI Router problem

Thanks, vinark. I am on the older Pro Tools HD (Accel) hardware and am not planning to upgrade to a newer version of Pro Tools hard- or software for a variety of reasons. I will be changing DAW's altogether which, after more than 20 years on Pro Tools, is a daunting prospect.