1 (edited by Moriarty 2019-05-12 11:07:20)

Topic: ADI-2 DAC with iFi DC iPurifier?

A few days ago I’ve found a new ADI-2 DAC review (written April 1). It’s published on Polish blog „HiFi Philosophy” - quite well-known in an audiophile niche. Unfortunately, there is no English translation. It’s typical - in ADI-2 DAC case - very enthusiastic review, the author really like this device.

What is interesting, Mr. Piotr Ryka had an opportunity to listen to ADI-2 DAC with iFi DC iPurifier. According to him, this little gadget changes a lot. This opinion is so enthusiastic I could suspect the ad, but the author has a good reputation. I think he writes what he hear - or think he hear smile.

Here is a rough translation:

„[With iFi DC iPurifier, ADI-2 DAC] played a lot nicer! A lot, a lot, a lot. (...) [iFi DC iPurifier] saturated, darkened and, above all, made music a more fluid, more analogue, I was really shocked. And I will even say I can’t imagine using this RME without it.

(….) the improvement was so great it was impossible to believe. It's like a different device, especially in the analogue and depth dimensions.”

Here is the full review: https://hifiphilosophy.com/recenzja-rme … -artykul=1

Well… Too good to be true, huh? As far as I know, iFi is a solid brand, its linear power supplies has a good opinion. Maybe these guys really know what they do in this case too?

I would like to know other opinions. Do you have any experience with iFi DC iPurifier connected to the ADI-2 DAC?

BTW, DC iPurifier has the successor: iFi DC iPurifier2. According to iFi it is better of course, but I know nothing about its real value.

2 (edited by bejoro 2019-05-11 10:11:28)

Re: ADI-2 DAC with iFi DC iPurifier?

It is only clever marketing and also a blogger has to live.
I have tested all these gadgets, no difference in sound quality at all.
It could make sense if you have a really bad USB interface in a cheap notebook or something like that. But you will reduce possible errors but you will not gain any improvement in sound quality. Better solution in that case, buy a good notebook.

Re: ADI-2 DAC with iFi DC iPurifier?

If you need a small and very portable DAC with a good sound quality Ifi devices are a good choice (ADI-2 PRO/DAC are superior by far, but different user scenarios).

All the other gadgets ifi offers are the typical HighEnd marketing hype which makes this so annoying for many customers. The power supplies could have an impact with the portable ifi DACs for stationary use. But my experience is that battery power produced the best sound quality with ifi DACs. Absolutely no improvement with RME devices.

Re: ADI-2 DAC with iFi DC iPurifier?

Moriarty wrote:

„[With iFi DC iPurifier, ADI-2 DAC] played a lot nicer! A lot, a lot, a lot. (...) [iFi DC iPurifier] saturated, darkened and, above all, made music a more fluid, more analogue, I was really shocked. And I will even say I can’t imagine using this RME without it.

(….) the improvement was so great it was impossible to believe. It's like a different device, especially in the analogue and depth dimensions.”

Here is the full review: https://hifiphilosophy.com/recenzja-rme … -artykul=1

Well… Too good to be true, huh?

Yes of course, too good to be true.

If that would be true then the consequence of this would mean that all other reviewers of the ADI-2 DAC (who did not use the iPurifier for review) were idiots because they didn't recognize how bad the sound is.

Of course this is "bullshit by nature(tm)".

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: ADI-2 DAC with iFi DC iPurifier?

I can not support the argument that all other reviewers would have been idiots.
If they have not tested accessories or did not know about a specific one they have no experience or test results.

Some accessories make sense even if a reviewer or many reviewers did not mention it.

But these USB purifiers/filters/conditoners are nonsense, at least with modern and well designed DACs like the RME devices.

Re: ADI-2 DAC with iFi DC iPurifier?

You didn't get my point.

This guy claimed that it was MUCH of a difference so that he was kind of shocked.

If it's SUCH a difference then it means a real significant difference in sound, a bad sound.

The ADI 2 PRO and DAC have been reviewed so often by many ppl, measured and compared to other devices. They "must have been idiots" if they didn't notice this bad sound if this should be true.

Of course this is not true,  there is no bad sound, so nobody is an idiot, it's simply a bullshit story from somebody who will have its advantages by writing this.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

7 (edited by bejoro 2019-05-12 08:06:17)

Re: ADI-2 DAC with iFi DC iPurifier?

Oh, I got your point, just read my post. Though, I used a less colorful language and opened another perspective. Not everything is black and white.

An improvement in sound quality does not mean it was bad before. It also could be a matter of taste. Our perception is never objective it is always subjective.

Not all so called High-End (audiophile) equipment is nonsense. But it can be very hard to separate the "real gear" from marketing hyped nonsense. Because of this difficulty some users ignore it and condemn everything/everyone (Ignorance is bliss), it is so much easier, and others just jump on that train, without being critical and thinking their perception is always right.

I test new equipment or accessories for many, many hours, sometimes for weeks to eliminate subjective perception issues as good as possible. That is very time-consuming and can be very exhausting. But that is the way to go if you want to offer the best solution to your customers.

Edit: corrected some typos

8 (edited by ramses 2019-05-12 09:08:22)

Re: ADI-2 DAC with iFi DC iPurifier?

> Though, I used a less colorful language

My colorful language I used intentional to show the discrepancy between the claims of this blogger and reality.

Reality is that some changes are only very subtile that they are merely to identify.

You say yourself how much time it takes (sometime's weeks) to identify very small differences / improvement's.

In this regards the wording of this blogger guy is simply  totally inappropriate far from reality, besides this I do not believe any word. It's the typical HiFi nonsense to sell something.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: ADI-2 DAC with iFi DC iPurifier?

@bejoro

bejoro wrote:

It could make sense if you have a really bad USB interface

Are you sure we are talking about the same device? DC iPurifier, not USB iPurifier? It's totally different stuff smile


@ramses

ramses wrote:

This guy claimed that it was MUCH of a difference so that he was kind of shocked.
If it's SUCH a difference then it means a real significant difference in sound, a bad sound.

I wouldn't believe in SUCH a difference, of course. I take it as a semantic hyperbole: the reviewer heard a change of sound and liked it, that's all.

I know ADI-2 DAC work well with its own power supply. My question is: does it mean there is no space for improvements? In this case, we don't talk about theoretical possibilities - the reviewer connected iFi device to ADI-2 DAC, not to "some DAC". And he noticed something. Described effect surprised me a bit, but - even when I take it with a grain of salt - I wouldn't say it's impossible at all.

So, I repeat my question:
Do you have any EXPERIENCE with iFi DC iPurifier connected to the ADI-2 DAC? smile

10 (edited by ramses 2019-05-12 10:31:14)

Re: ADI-2 DAC with iFi DC iPurifier?

Make it simple and straightforward.
Get both and test in a proper way, so that you do not fool yourself based on psychoacoustic effects.
Usually you can give it back within 2-4 weeks.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: ADI-2 DAC with iFi DC iPurifier?

Neither the DC iPurifier nor the USB iPurifier makes any difference, both tested with different (modern, well designed) DACs, also with ADI-2 PRO FS.

Re: ADI-2 DAC with iFi DC iPurifier?

I own the adi 2 dac and connected it to the usb port using the ifi iusb3 nano There is an improvement in the picture both in width and depth, but the main thing is that the position of the musical instruments and the voice is even better. Obviously I do not mean a chaotic difference, but clearly heard. If you do not try it, you will not miss it, but if you hear it with ifi you will not get it out of the chain.

Re: ADI-2 DAC with iFi DC iPurifier?

nearhos wrote:

I own the adi 2 dac and connected it to the usb port using the ifi iusb3 nano There is an improvement in the picture both in width and depth, but the main thing is that the position of the musical instruments and the voice is even better. Obviously I do not mean a chaotic difference, but clearly heard. If you do not try it, you will not miss it, but if you hear it with ifi you will not get it out of the chain.

There is no way such a device can improve sound quality (picture, remove a veil, sound stage or other idiophool’s BS.
It may suppress a hum or a buzz for example, but that’s all.
Please consider how USB works. It’s physics, not magic.

ADI-2 DAC (with stock PSU) - Neumann KH 310 A monitors - Cheap USB and XLR cables

Re: ADI-2 DAC with iFi DC iPurifier?

N00b wrote:
nearhos wrote:

I own the adi 2 dac and connected it to the usb port using the ifi iusb3 nano There is an improvement in the picture both in width and depth, but the main thing is that the position of the musical instruments and the voice is even better. Obviously I do not mean a chaotic difference, but clearly heard. If you do not try it, you will not miss it, but if you hear it with ifi you will not get it out of the chain.

There is no way such a device can improve sound quality (picture, remove a veil, sound stage or other idiophool’s BS.
It may suppress a hum or a buzz for example, but that’s all.
Please consider how USB works. It’s physics, not magic.

+1

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

15 (edited by bejoro 2019-05-12 16:00:01)

Re: ADI-2 DAC with iFi DC iPurifier?

ramses wrote:

> Though, I used a less colorful language

My colorful language I used intentional to show the discrepancy between the claims of this blogger and reality.

Reality is that some changes are only very subtile that they are merely to identify.

You say yourself how much time it takes (sometime's weeks) to identify very small differences / improvement's.

In this regards the wording of this blogger guy is simply  totally inappropriate far from reality, besides this I do not believe any word. It's the typical HiFi nonsense to sell something.

I did not suggest that there must only be subtle or very small differences to be evaluated thoroughly. It is necessary to evaluate even strong differences thoroughly whether they are an improvement or a degradation in sound quality no matter how tempting they may seem on a first impression (subjective nature of perception can lead to a wrong conclusion).

16 (edited by nearhos 2019-05-12 16:41:26)

Re: ADI-2 DAC with iFi DC iPurifier?

I do not write the above for reasons of impressing. Ifi was tested on other computers and other dacs. There were other bigger and other smaller ones. The case I'm talking about is a macbook pro 13, but tests have been done olso on IMac. And impressions are not just about my individual, but also others. I put my point of view and I am not trying to convince anyone. I usually deny or accept something after I try it. I tried it, have you tried it?

N00b wrote:
nearhos wrote:

I own the adi 2 dac and connected it to the usb port using the ifi iusb3 nano There is an improvement in the picture both in width and depth, but the main thing is that the position of the musical instruments and the voice is even better. Obviously I do not mean a chaotic difference, but clearly heard. If you do not try it, you will not miss it, but if you hear it with ifi you will not get it out of the chain.

There is no way such a device can improve sound quality (picture, remove a veil, sound stage or other idiophool’s BS.
It may suppress a hum or a buzz for example, but that’s all.
Please consider how USB works. It’s physics, not magic.

Re: ADI-2 DAC with iFi DC iPurifier?

Sounds as if you want to launch another discussion about psychoacoustic effects.

I am pretty sure that you also believe into audiophile usb cables...

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

18 (edited by nearhos 2019-05-13 04:37:05)

Re: ADI-2 DAC with iFi DC iPurifier?

The usb cable I use is belden, like most power cables and rca-xlr[also a canare quadstar for xlr and headphone cable] . And most of them are diy. Also beyond the RME ADI2 DAC I have a dac diy -9028 and an audeze deckart But that does not concern our subject

Also I do not want anyone to buy it, but try it - if it can. If someone thinks it's worth buying then let it decide. I also want to clarify that I am referring to ifi iusb3 nano and not to another product .

Re: ADI-2 DAC with iFi DC iPurifier?

Sorry but the claims of this product and the recommended mercury usb cable for €300 are pure nonsense.

The data transfer up to the dac's d/a converter is pure digital and even jitter is not relevant as steadyclock will eliminate any jitter. The d/a conversion inside the adi-2 dax/pro is being performed by the interface femtosecond clock.

So the digital transfer of data and d/a conversion are decoupled from each other.

As long as there are no transmission error's over USB because of a bad or too long  cable or cheap connectors, soldering points, etc Any cheap cable will do.

You only fool yourself (and potentially others).

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: ADI-2 DAC with iFi DC iPurifier?

Don't waste your time Ramses, and let him lose his money.
https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopi … 64#p138064

He's into audiophools snake oils (USB magic devices and transcending PSU upgrades).

For me, all is said in this post, by Daniel Fuchs (RME Support), a guy whose opinions are more relevant to me than any audiophools with golden ears:
https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopi … 32#p137832

[...]

That said, there is no way USB transfer can affect audio in terms of "sound quality".

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Point. It is physics and math, basic digital signal knowledge.

ADI-2 DAC (with stock PSU) - Neumann KH 310 A monitors - Cheap USB and XLR cables

Re: ADI-2 DAC with iFi DC iPurifier?

Thanks was missing this link.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: ADI-2 DAC with iFi DC iPurifier?

Another quote by RME support, in that thread:

RME Support wrote:
Robertm394 wrote:

I mentioned already that it wasn't a scientifically valid test. I'm not trying to convince anyone here, either. I'm trying to improve my understanding. At the same time, I'm not ready to accept blanket statements like "USB cable quality has no effect on sound quality" when my perceptual experience differs.

Quite in line with our post-factual world, but no, for many reasons explained above, your personal "experience" does not alter facts.

There may possibly be a certain merit to discussing purely analog cables and whether or not they could have an influence on sound (coat hanger vs. Monster cable...). At least these things actually transmit audio. USB cables do not transmit audio. Not even digital audio (where a difference in "sound quality" can already be ruled out, e.g. in SPDIF transfers). They transmit data. As long as none of the data is corrupted, and each and every 1 and 0 recognized correctly, there is NO way any gradual difference in data transmission could have a specific, reproducible, and recognizable effect on the audio signal ("stereo width", "stage", "spaciousness/localization", or whatever other voodoo criteria). Otherwise, you would have to be able to explain which changes to bits in a USB connection would have which specific influence on the embedded audio signal without affecting the reliability of the USB data connection....

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

After all that, if one prefers to believe that to think...
Alongside with their golden ear, audiophools should grow a golden brain...

ADI-2 DAC (with stock PSU) - Neumann KH 310 A monitors - Cheap USB and XLR cables

Re: ADI-2 DAC with iFi DC iPurifier?

I'm not interested in what ifi says about recommended usb cables.
I think there is a difference that I have done the test while you are not. And I do not claim to have goldenears or platinum pockets ... And I do not think I bother anyone in the way I expose my views. Unfortunately it is not easy to upload a picture from the test done a few months ago.

Re: ADI-2 DAC with iFi DC iPurifier?

This is all very entertaining

I find the lack of all BS very reassuring and will defiantly buy a adi pro now and use the cheapest cables possible.

www.yila.co.uk

Re: ADI-2 DAC with iFi DC iPurifier?

Just bought ADI-2 DAC and appreciate engineering level of the product! Thank you, guys from RME for your effort!

Still I cannot understand why we need so straightforward (I would say primitive) explanation of digital gear like this:
"here is NO way any gradual difference in data transmission could have a specific, reproducible, and recognizable effect on the audio signal ("stereo width", "stage", "spaciousness/localization", or whatever other voodoo criteria".

All above mentioned criteria are not "voodoo" at all.
We are not talking about "specific, reproducible, and recognizable effect" leads to a saxophone sounds like a piano on all records, right?
Instead, life-like "stereo width", "stage", "spaciousness/localization" are all mandatory attributes of high resolution system.
Take first generation CD-player (12 bits of real resolution) and 20 bucks headphones - and you get just "stereo" but no "stage" or "spaciousness/localization"".

I spent quite long time playing with classical highest-grade multibit DACs like AD1862 and others many years ago. These DACs classical implementation had some potentiometers for linearity (=resolution) adjustment. Turn it incorrect (the DAC becomes more like 12-14 bit resolution) - and no "stage" or "spaciousness/localization" is here. Turn it precise and accurate (linearity at least 16 or more, close to 18 bits) - and you'll get all these "voodoo".

How is it possible to affect linearity\resolution otherwise then by "turning potentiometers"? It is more than easy! Just get low-quality power supply with high leakage current, get cheapest poor shielded digital cables which will radiate EMI to sensitive analog circuits, etc. etc. - and you are done!
No magic, no woodoo at all.
Just straightforward physics.

26 (edited by maartenl 2019-06-01 03:48:00)

Re: ADI-2 DAC with iFi DC iPurifier?

Dukua, just (fucking) read the various posts by RME's engineers (people whom I trust they are very knowledgeable on audio electronics).

This forum is getting more and more polluted by ignorant people like you that start the same (power supply, cables etc.) discussion again and again and again without any real contribution or saying something that's fresh or interesting. It's always the same story that's brought forward without a satisfying solution. Stop it, please.

Why bother us with your beliefs ? Why don't you just buy a very expensive 'audiophile' (read: audio-fool) power supply and cables and just shut up and enjoy listening ?

What for god's sake do you want to tell us? If you believe in snake-oil, just buy it and enjoy it. We don't care.

More and more I get the impression that this forum and many other audio fora serve as a means to reduce the cognitive dissonance felt by people that have spent or are planning to spend lots of money on audio components that do not improve sound.

Re: ADI-2 DAC with iFi DC iPurifier?

@maartenl, are you ok, man?

Where have you found anything related to snake-oil in my post?
I'm worrying about you.

Truly yours,
dukua,
engineer since 1994,
silicon valley.

28 (edited by bejoro 2019-06-01 08:53:56)

Re: ADI-2 DAC with iFi DC iPurifier?

There is no difference if your system is correctly configured. It is technically impossible (regarding the digital domain). There are some accessories which make sense, for example USB isolators, to solve ground loop problems, electrical potential issues etc.

I have tested some extremely high-quality power supplies and there was no difference at all.

There was a reproducible difference with a battery pack (different grounding) but overall it was no improvement just a bit different (I will not describe the differences in detail, does not make sense here).

If you need a portable solution, you need to use a battery pack. The RME devices sound best with the org. power supply (if your system is configured correctly).

Analog audio cables can make a difference, price independent (mostly the highest price, so called high-end cables sound worse). But there are clear reproducible differences. The wrong analog cables can deteriorate the listening experience significantly, especially on high resolution systems. The sound differences are not caused in the frequency domain but in the time domain where our acoustical perception is much more sensitive (I did some scientific research at Fraunhofer Inst.). These phase distortions are used by clever cable manufacturers to fabricate a more dramatic experience (brighter, more dynamic, spacial). But overall these phase distortions are wrong and lead to a fatiguing listening experience.

So I would not recommend the cheapest cable (they have problems too), but well designed and manufactured high quality cables, not very expensive (about the rough price range €/$70 per pair, 1 meter). Example: Sommer Cable "Carbokab".

Truly yours,
bejoro,
engineer since 1989 (I win),
high-end audio retailer since 2001,
Bavaria (the best engineers come from here, Bazinga).