1 (edited by TR62 2019-05-11 08:42:35)

Topic: Win10x64 Pro UFX audio dropouts showing dialog boxes

Hi,
Just upgraded to Win10x64 Pro, and am experiencing some odd issues, with the latest UFX firmware and drivers installed.
If I am playing audio, for example, from the web in a browser, or another app, then launch SoundForge13 or Cantabile, the audio stops briefly. 

It also happens with dialogue boxes opening/closing in music apps.  If I open a dialog box in SoundForge13 or C3?  Audio stops.  Examine their settings for audio?  The audio stops.  Close a dialogue box?  Audio stops.

I use fast buffers 128 and 48kHz for all my music work, but this has never been an issue before (UFX has been here years).  There is 1 WDM device set aside for Windows apps in Control Panel.  I am running high power, background process priority, no sleep mode - most everything I can think of.  This did not happen in Win7, that experience was very smooth.

I'd rather the audio was seamless, no matter which apps are starting/stopping etc. if possible - it was certainly much smoother on Win7x64Pro.

Can anyone shed any light?  Things to check I may have missed? 
eg. I am running AVG, but audio data folders are excluded.  Behaviour watcher, off.

Thanks in advance.

2 (edited by TR62 2019-05-11 08:40:18)

Re: Win10x64 Pro UFX audio dropouts showing dialog boxes

Is everyone else just putting up with this, because this is just how things are on Win10?
I really don't think dialogue boxes opening/closing in my music apps ever caused glitches with the RME UFX drivers of old.
Am I the only person experiencing this?

3 (edited by ramses 2019-05-11 10:07:17)

Re: Win10x64 Pro UFX audio dropouts showing dialog boxes

Which win 10 ? 1804, 1809 ?

Did you try all USB ports?

BIOS related questions?
C-States set to C0/C1 ?
C1N disabled ?
Is EIST and Turbo enabled ?

What values does LatencyMonday report ?
- configured for showing kernel latency timer,
- on an IDLE system (no apps running/ no user activity ) and
- recording interface disconnected.

Did you make a backup so that you can restore/fallback to Win7 ?

I would clone Win7 installation to a 2nd disk by using Macrium reflect, then perform a Win10 upgrade installation and change boot menu to boot either 7 or 10. Then you can research 10 until you get it working for you or stay for another while on 7.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, Win7 Prof, Cubase 9.5, UFX+, Octamic XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS BE/DAC, RayDAT, ARC USB

4 (edited by TR62 2019-05-11 13:06:49)

Re: Win10x64 Pro UFX audio dropouts showing dialog boxes

Hi Ramses,
Thanks for your reply. 
Dealing with dual boot - not an option, SSD failed, so had to rebuild from scratch (about a week after pressing the "upgrade from Win7 to Win10 automatically" button - upgrader beware).
Win ver 10.0.17763.475 (1809)
Checked all these other points. Nothing untoward.  There is one unregistered PCI-device, a serial port, but that's not an issue.
The issue is when switching applications, and opening/closing dialogue boxes.
Any audio playing stops and then continues, leaving a gap.
This has the hallmarks of the ASIO driver being stopped while application focus is changing, and the ASIO driver carries on from where it got to.  So it's not dropping buffers at all, just pausing and restartng.  Dialogues which are worst affected are in SoundForge13 - RecardArm, Record, StopRecording, CloseFile, change focus away from Forge or back to Forge.
Cantabile causes these glitches as well when examining Tools > Options. 
It would be unnavigable in a stage environment.

This system was stable as a rock under Win7.  Strange.

5 (edited by TR62 2019-05-11 13:52:12)

Re: Win10x64 Pro UFX audio dropouts showing dialog boxes

Installed Ableton as a double check, and let Shoutcast play in the background.  Shoutcast was fine.
Switched Ableton to ASIO device, FF UFX USB, changed output to 3-4.
Audio kept dropping out.
Caught this appearing in the panel!  It seems SOMETHING is trying to set it at 32000Hz every few seconds.
This is with no other applications running.

strangeUsbPanel

6 (edited by TR62 2019-05-11 14:26:01)

Re: Win10x64 Pro UFX audio dropouts showing dialog boxes

From a reboot, open Ableton, set 48kHz and 128, and watch the sample rate.
The greyed box becomes white temporarily, then the message above in red is displayed, with the 32000 Hz.
This is happening every 6 seconds or so, so it must be some background process or driver issue.

Could this be a driver or UFX firmware issue?
I am running driver 1.167 and h/w 360.

If Ableton is the active app, and clearly thinks it has control of this setting, why can other processes attempt to change it?
Surely it should remain grey and not alter.  Perhaps I am not understanding what I am seeing, if anyone knows what this means.

We used to be able to Lock the sample rate in the USB settings and this was helpful.  Once you have decided 48kHz for everything all apps should just go with that.  Is this functionality still in the driver somewhere?  I do not want the app in focus to assume control of the driver, I would like the clock to stay undisturbed!

I cannot see any other app that ought to be altering these settings.  Killed all browser processes, Skype, etc, and it makes no difference.

I think now the dialogue box issue is related - maybe somehow app focus or dialogue boxes are altering the ASIO clock setting somehow, which causes the driver to stop and start.  Idea, but no proof.

7

Re: Win10x64 Pro UFX audio dropouts showing dialog boxes

Is there something connected to the Word Clock input?

How old is that UFX?

Can you check for hardware errors as explained here:

https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=25533

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

8 (edited by TR62 2019-05-11 15:21:00)

Re: Win10x64 Pro UFX audio dropouts showing dialog boxes

Hi MC
Thank you for chiming in.
No, there is nothing feeding WDCLK into the UFX.
But the UFX does provide WDCLK for 2x Octopres and an AES router, and then dasiychains onto the network for ProToolsHDX, and those OctoPres are providing 16channels of audio into the RME UFX.

Checked your link but I have never used Durec.

(True we did have issues with the WDCLK output at one point, but think we solved all that by changing the cabling up - please see the image below of what the RME is producing currently.  Optical is a greater concern, but that is for another topic.)

The frequency of the error in the USB panel is affected by opening and closing other applications, so my money is on some software issue more than hardware on this occasion.  I just cannot see what could be asking for 32kHz in the process list.

How old? We have had it since January 2016.

oscilloscopeWDCLKoutput

9 (edited by TR62 2019-05-15 18:31:41)

Re: Win10x64 Pro UFX audio dropouts showing dialog boxes

I should add the panel tells me it loses sync from the incoming devices when the clock rate changes, so whatever is trying to change the clock rate seems to be changing it successfully.  I get no wobble in the Wordclock trace though.  The attached devices are not switched on currently - I just ran the test to see what would happen.

Note, I have never seen this behaviour from this system before - it's worked really quite until now.  There have been no major rejigs of how it's wired up for some time.

Re: Win10x64 Pro UFX audio dropouts showing dialog boxes

The only thing we have done is update the firmware and drivers when the main system was upgraded to Wn10.

11 (edited by TR62 2019-05-11 16:25:08)

Re: Win10x64 Pro UFX audio dropouts showing dialog boxes

Interesting.
I can make the fluctuations in clock go away entirely, if I close Live and the Firefox browser.
If I access the control panel for the UFX, the clock is stable.

So, it is only stable if no programs are interacting with it!  LOL! 

I think this means it is not a hardware issue. 

I am not sure if this is related, but recently in the mornings it has been complaining that TMFX settings do not match the device.  One would have thought that they should?  May be a clue, if nothing more.

Easy to leap on the driver/firmware, but I think it's this PC specifically, because:
a) dropping back the driver to 4/5/18 v1.114 shows the same sample rate squabbling going on
b) putting the UFX another Win10 PC we get no issues at all.  This has the older v1.114 driver installed.

Re: Win10x64 Pro UFX audio dropouts showing dialog boxes

WORKING SOLUTION?

I am not sure why this worked, but a combination of :
1) forcing a refresh of the USB slots (insert UFX in a different port)
2) increasing the number of WDM devices from 1 to 2
...seems.. to have stopped the clock sample rate jostling about.

I am going to stick with the 1.114 driver for a while.

Re: Win10x64 Pro UFX audio dropouts showing dialog boxes

What happens when you change WDM devices back to 1 now?

14

Re: Win10x64 Pro UFX audio dropouts showing dialog boxes

Then it must have been a USB problem that did not show up in the error display. Totally screwed communication between driver and hardware.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Win10x64 Pro UFX audio dropouts showing dialog boxes

Did you already try

1) with another quality usb cable of let's say 3m length. I made good experience with Lindy quality cables.

2) to connect the UFX to another computer ?

I suggest 2 things

a Win7 installation on a different/new SSD and to keep it for comparison purposes whether Win10 sucks and for Fallback if a Win10 upgrade impacts your machine

Implement a working backup with Macrium reflect to be able to quickly and reliably recover from any bad situation.
During installation create disk images (of win7 and 10) and store them well of ext disk:

- after windows installation from install media
***Win7: configure Windows upgrade to install only important and security upgrades***
- after installing only the required drivers
(Chipset, Ethernet,  Graphic, USB3)
- after windows upgrade
- after installation of applications and another windows upgrade if perhaps upgrades are available for dot net or other things

With these 4 images you can recover anything and quickly start amy diagnosis if required even if you have only a one disk system.

As Windows 10 introduces too many changes, can not be parametrized to install only important and security upgrades and sometimes even deletes user data you need something like a reliable upgrade.

Macrium Reflect is such a reliable tool.
Best is to have an internal backup disk of 4-10 TB in size to be able to perform backups quick and unattended  (automatic) and to store such "golden " images.

Part of such a backup concept is to store user data on a different partition, best on a dedicated disk for several reasons
- backup and restore of OS disk goes quicker, disk images of the OS are smaller
- distribution of i/o between two SATA busses
- you can even restore Win7 or Win10 on demand and do not loose any user data only some user profile data
- if a disk crashes you loose only either OS or User data, not both, by this you have less to recover
- shall only Win10 ssd crash, you can continue with boot of Win7

Part of this concept is to have also a separate backup running for user profile data (c:\users) and your user data on other disk.

With such a setup and working backup concept you can troubleshoot and recover much quicker and you are very flexible to hacelebrate options for any potential situation that could arise.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, Win7 Prof, Cubase 9.5, UFX+, Octamic XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS BE/DAC, RayDAT, ARC USB

Re: Win10x64 Pro UFX audio dropouts showing dialog boxes

Thanks for your patience.

Cables are the obvious culprit perhaps.  To be certain, I have ordered a full set of shielded 3m or less USB cables, and they are in transit.  The USB configuration has been stable for the longest time however - USB3.0 powered hub, all cables are known to be good, and lengths are compliant with USB3.0 specs.  It has been solid.

Other stuff happens though - there have been a steady stream of Win10 O/S updates of late, and who only knows what that does to background processes.  Could be that was the cause.

Actually, it is a fear with Win10 that it'll do this kind of background nonsense on the road/stage.  I really hope Microsoft rethink what Win10 does and WHEN, eg go hunt updates, or apply patches, etc. - if at all.  Some of us need to lock things down.  Maybe Kiosk mode has something to offer for stage work?  Anyone know?  It's mainly the settings and update policies that make it unsuitable. 

The system has been stable since dropping back to the earlier driver.

I have three viable test systems here, so swapping parts about is easy enough.  I have not seen issues with the other systems at all.  They have the 1.114 driver installed too.

I have also been experimenting with the Soundcraft MTK ASIO driver 14:12 channels at 48kHz using the same system settings.  So I can A / B devices/drivers against similar Windows settings.  Both are working currently.

Points well made about back ups.  However I am not going back to Win7 having made the switch because it is no longer supported in a few short months time.  The more people migrate and raise their issues with Microsoft, the faster their o/s becomes stable.  Without feedback from sensible users, they can't hope to get it right.  I don't think that Microsoft are deaf to issues particularly, just it's hard to pin down how best to feedback to them.  I doubt forums posts are the answer.

I admit I do miss the days when the o/s did what I asked it to, rather than doing what it wants when it wants.  "Up to date" is not necessarily "stable".

I'll post if the issue reoccurs.

I have not dropped WDM to 1, but intend to try 0 at some point.  Audio gaps opening and closing dialogue boxes is getting very annoying very fast.  Probably a mix of WDM and ASIO channels causing issues.  If I stick with all ASIO, then hopefully that will be that.

Re: Win10x64 Pro UFX audio dropouts showing dialog boxes

Make a parallel installation of win7 for life purposes.

Alternatively silence Win10 with o&oshutup and retry.

Make backup 1st with Macrium Reflect.
Get commercial version because only then you get rapid delta restore feature activated which writes only those blocks to disk which need to be changed. 650 GB Installation has a restore time of below 10 minutes when restoring same system to the status of ie last week.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, Win7 Prof, Cubase 9.5, UFX+, Octamic XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS BE/DAC, RayDAT, ARC USB

18 (edited by TR62 2019-05-15 14:09:40)

Re: Win10x64 Pro UFX audio dropouts showing dialog boxes

People may like to know Mozilla Thunderbird reports some information about WASAPI settings.
Run Help > Troubleshooting information, and find the Media section.
On this system there are several apparently competing clock rates, conflicting channel group sizes and so forth.  I don't run any system here at 64kHz, so not sure how that has got in there.
Not my area of expertise though, so may be nothing at all - but that group of 8 is a surprise to me.  Hangover from surround sound settings perhaps?

ThunderbirdPresents

Re: Win10x64 Pro UFX audio dropouts showing dialog boxes

Ramses - we have many good reasons for not regressing to Win7Pro, and will persist with Win10Pro, thank you.

Re: Win10x64 Pro UFX audio dropouts showing dialog boxes

Setting WDM to 0, and then setting it to 4 made little difference.  I had thought it might overwrite the WASAPI settings Thunderbird reports, but the 64000 and 44100 values stubbornly remain.

21

Re: Win10x64 Pro UFX audio dropouts showing dialog boxes

It says 'Disabled, None', so these entries - read out from the registry - are not relevant. For the record: I have around 420 (420) of these entries, as this computer has seen every RME interface in multiple configurations.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Win10x64 Pro UFX audio dropouts showing dialog boxes

Thanks Matthias, I wondered if they were dead entries, given the repeats.

I have now tried this machine using a Soundcraft ASIO driver, which is lower bandwith than the UFX.  Sadly - Win10 continues to behave badly when attempting to run audio in a browser and run pro-audio software using the same audio device.  So this affects all audio drivers, not just the UFX.

On this PC, the whole Windows audio subsystem seems incapable of coping with shared drivers without killing whatever audio is already running, and dialogue boxes, application launches and so forth can cause the whole system instability - the MTK driver was unusable within seconds of the first problem.  I had to unplug the audio device to get the driver to play nice again.

Just to recap.  The UFX works at 24bit 128samples 48kHz and without issue with all channels enabled, provided I run one application and select ASIO.  My DAW work is unaffected, provide I don't want SoundForge open to edit a file, or open a browser window.

If I close the DAW and open Forge, I can work on files with no issues.  But if I try to open Forge without closing the DAW, or open a browser, then it at best pauses the audio, at worst kills the driver.  This can't be right, can it?

23

Re: Win10x64 Pro UFX audio dropouts showing dialog boxes

You open Forge with a file of a different sample rate? That might kill the DAW.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

24 (edited by TR62 2019-05-16 12:09:09)

Re: Win10x64 Pro UFX audio dropouts showing dialog boxes

That's an idea Matthias, but no, all files are 48kHz.  And I open the app without recalling the last opn file.

Being specific:  using Ableton v9.7, SoundForge v13, UFX.

I have Ableton set up for using 4x ASIO channels in the UFX - 1234 for both in and out.   
Forge has "routings" so, I set up 56 78  for in and out over the natural 12 34, in an attempt to separate the two apps.
In theory then, if they do not share i/o, they should just deal with the driver without incident.
No.
When launching Forge, the audio playing back in Ableton through the UFX, stutters, drops back to 44.1kHz momentarily, and then jumps back to 48kHz, again.

Maybe Forge v13 has issues.

Re: Win10x64 Pro UFX audio dropouts showing dialog boxes

Yes that has been a known issue with some daws/apps. when starting they momentarily go to 44k and cause havoc. People working at 44k will never see this happening.
What might help is under windows configuration sound properties rme outputs used, you can set it to only use a certain frequency (for digital outputs) or set the sample freq when shared.
If nothing helps, just keep sound forge open.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
HDSP9652+ADI-8AE  2X HDSP9632
Cubase pro10

Re: Win10x64 Pro UFX audio dropouts showing dialog boxes

Huh.  As a last resort, I set Forge to use SOUND MAPPER, and reconfigured the devices in Wndows to use the right channels to enable loopback.  This is a far smoother experience.  No glitches from Ableton, or Forge, or Browser - and they all run at the same time.

Moral of this story is... DO NOT give Sound Forge access to your ASIO driver directly.

Think I'll talk to Magix about this.

Re: Win10x64 Pro UFX audio dropouts showing dialog boxes

I know for a fact that cubase did this too, switching to 44k temporarily. Not checked it recently. Even ableton might do it. Have a look at the sample rate when it is starting. But....you got it fixed/workable...yeah!

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
HDSP9652+ADI-8AE  2X HDSP9632
Cubase pro10