101 (edited by maartenl 2019-07-26 11:00:33)

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

Pitrs wrote:
maartenl wrote:
Pitrs wrote:

willem:
May I kindly ask you to share a link of any my post in this thread where I "argue for another preamplifier".
With all respect - I did not write a single word supporting this idea. Looking forward the link.

Pitrs wrote:

And to the question: I use ADI-2 PRO as DAC only having it connected to Parasound P5 preamp.

Nice try, but get ready to laugh::you lost it again. Willem was writing about my arguing for pre. Sorry mate big_smile.

There is no argue, my post is a simple factual statement of my connection.

Ridiculos how vainly you try to "get me". You see arguing even in the simplest factual statement. Being driven just by this negativity you always get the shorter straw. And it makes you trying harder with even less success. And on and on. This thread shows it clearly. Enjoy.

Hi Pitrs (Audio God), you are right on this one. Enjoy. And again thanks, I really appreciate and enjoy your posts a lot. Always best to have a laugh, even if I get the shorter straw once a while, but hey I am human not an (audio) God... ;-P

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

Is this forum always such a sh*tshow?

You share your experience and bunch of people attack you because it doesn't match 100% with their experience (they call it "facts") - and pretty much all equipment including the room, is different, except RME DAC.  But you are wrong!

Can we just have civilized discussion and learn from each other? Be happy if somebody found "better" sound they like or that fills their needs (in case of sound engineers...)

In audio, even we can measure so many things, at the end of the day most correct answer is "it depends", and lets not let trolls take over the thread

~~ sound sommelier ~~

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

hhrvoje wrote:

Is this forum always such a sh*tshow?

No, it is not!

Foul talk and sarcasm is pretty much isolated to this particular subforum. The vast majority of RME products are geared towards audio-engineers, but the ADI-2 Pro (and derivatives) has obvious audiophile appeal - which very predictably leads to somewhat of a culture clash when those two different "schools of thought" engage each other on a forum.

.. and it is easy for engineers to get triggered when reading "unsubstantiated" claims; an example of this could be your own post: ["I use Primaluna Prologue Premium preamp (with Mullard and RCA NOS tubes), sounds much better than RME pre."]. Doesn't really contribute anything empirical. A more useful reply could have been "I use such and such, because i prefer the sound" - which nobody can argue with. Semantics matter ..

.. so .. it always seems to come down to whether or not things can be "objectively" measured - which in turn sparks a debate on what is considered objective .. and audio-professionals are pretty "hardline" on this. One reason (but certainly not the only one) for my own particular stance on the matter, could be the countless hours i've spent mixing something, only to open it up the next day and find it sounding completely different, despite the fact that nothing has changed. I simply do not trust ears as a repeatable (as in "verifiable") source of measurement ..  it's way too affected by mood, health, ect ..

I would consider this forum somewhat of a laboratory, so my advice is to engage it as such (case and point: https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=28397) - and if you find the (often rude) emphasis on the scientific method a "sh*tshow" as you put it, just voice your thoughts as "personal opinion" ..

Producer / Engineer / Composer @ FishCorp
RayDAT > 2 x ADI-8 QS | AES+SPDIF > ADI-2 Pro

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

In terms of audio engineering I am but an amateur but I am a scientist by profession. For us, rigorous methodology is our core value: there may be other opinions but there are no alternative facts. I apply the same strictures to audio. I want my sound to be as close as possible to what was heard in the studio or concert hall. No more and no less. So I dislike anything that is not a straight wire, with or without gain. The logical implication is that I do not want anything in between a dac like the adi-2 and a power amp. Nothing can be as clean and neutral as a simple cable (and any cheap and cheerful cable will do).

RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Quad 606-2 power amp, Quad 2805 speakers, B&W PV1d sub with Antimode 8033 Cinema

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

@Basken this is what i am talking about - you're trying to convince me that my findings is not "empirical" enough, despite english is not my first language btw, so obviously im wrong, and I shouldn't share my experience here even somebody asked for.

@willem if 5 people who heard RME as preamp and compared it against Primaluna said that Primaluna sounds better with set of well-known songs and in familiar listening environment, which one is better then? Is that objective measurement of preamp is one specific system @Basken? How much more scientific can it even be?

And your statement "I do not want anything in between a dac like the adi-2 and a power amp" - rme IS preamp there - as soon you add gain (with volume control, passive or active) necessary for power amp input sensitivity, you have a preamp.

"I want my sound to be as close as possible to what was heard in the studio or concert hall" - and this is most important metric, in my opinion. If the system can reproduce an acoustic instrument like in live (unamplified!) environment, thats the ultimate goal, despite maybe one preamp measures slightly worse than other. Which one has better high fidelity reproduction, that one wins, simple as that.

~~ sound sommelier ~~

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

Sure the ADI-2 serves as a pre amp (also in my system), the discussion was if an additional pre amp was useful for sound quality, and I said no. The other question is whether the Primaluna is a better one or the ADI-2. It is my contention (based on the combination of measured results and quite a body of research on human hearing acuity) that the ADI-2 is better than what humans can hear - for all practical purposes it is therefore perfect, and more more perfect than perfect is impossible. The same, by the way, applies to many other goods DACs. So what does this mean if you hear differences between it and the Primaluna? You have two possibilities: either the Primaluna is audibly less than perfect, or the differences are imaginary. There is no magic.

RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Quad 606-2 power amp, Quad 2805 speakers, B&W PV1d sub with Antimode 8033 Cinema

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

willem wrote:

Sure the ADI-2 serves as a pre amp (also in my system), the discussion was if an additional pre amp was useful for sound quality, and I said no. The other question is whether the Primaluna is a better one or the ADI-2. It is my contention (based on the combination of measured results and quite a body of research on human hearing acuity) that the ADI-2 is better than what humans can hear - for all practical purposes it is therefore perfect, and more more perfect than perfect is impossible. The same, by the way, applies to many other goods DACs. So what does this mean if you hear differences between it and the Primaluna? You have two possibilities: either the Primaluna is audibly less than perfect, or the differences are imaginary. There is no magic.

Let me ask you this ("based on the combination of measured results"): how do you measure stereo imaging, sound stage, stage with, height, space between instruments, even upper bass (voice) volume if freq response is flat?

Did you just say that RME, or any pre/DAC device, is perfect ("for all practical purposes it is therefore perfect"), and there can not be better device?! If thats true, thats the funniest thing i heard in a long time!
Because RME can go 0-110khz that means its perfect, no need for actual listening or even matching with the rest of the system!

~~ sound sommelier ~~

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

hhrvoje wrote:

@Basken this is what i am talking about - you're trying to convince me that my findings is not "empirical" enough, despite english is not my first language btw, so obviously im wrong, and I shouldn't share my experience here even somebody asked for.

Hey - i'm danish, so english is not my first language either! smile

What i mean by "empirical", is that whatever you or i might claim - can be verified by others! If a piece of equipment makes a difference we can measure it somehow .. consistently!

hhrvoje wrote:

if 5 people who heard RME as preamp and compared it against Primaluna said that Primaluna sounds better with set of well-known songs and in familiar listening environment, which one is better then? Is that objective measurement of preamp is one specific system @Basken? How much more scientific can it even be?

I think your example is a (strong) "opinion" - but i cannot agree that it is "better" - just "different" (or perhaps "preferable") which is not the same!

"Better" in my understanding equals as close to the source as can possibly be; after all - this is the design-goal of the ADI-2 Pro.

If i had taken a photograph and made some prints of it - i would want the prints to be as close to the original as possible. But - how *you* would want to display that photograph - in daylight, spots, LEDs or whatever kind of lighting - is a matter of "personal preference". You may find it to look "better" under certain conditions .. but, that has nothing to do with the actual photograph.

I am not trolling or being sarcastic in any way! The majority of people here just work in the industry, where we color things in the recording or mix, and thus the output are meant for "clean reproduction" ..

Producer / Engineer / Composer @ FishCorp
RayDAT > 2 x ADI-8 QS | AES+SPDIF > ADI-2 Pro

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

I totally agree with you, we all want most real and life-like reproduction, thats why its called "high fidelity". Other hifi brand manufactures have the same goal im sure, but in audio playback we can never have perfect system, no matter how good components are. DACs are pretty accurate, pre and power amps slightly less but still pretty good, but speakers and specially speaker-room interaction, thats completely another story.

I often have 2 audiophile friends visiting me and we do various a/b testings of equipment we own, so its not just my opinion or preference.
And specially this combination, RME pre vs. Primaluna pre, *in my system*, they can't even compare, Prima is clearly better in any way. Mids, like human voices, are so much more accurate (thanks to the tubes), highs are just nicer, more airy, bass is maybe tighter on RME but Prima adds some body to it and special color/timbar. RME is good pre, but there are many worse and many better products out here, and if you have system with good enough resolution and transparency, you will hear it immediately. And in some other systems, maybe RME pre is better than Prima, specially if you're not looking for realistic sound stage projection and natural tone/timbar!

~~ sound sommelier ~~

110 (edited by Jas0_0 2019-07-31 07:45:46)

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

@hhrvoje, if you’re worried that this forum is a s***show, I would say your post above is quite a big stirring stick in a place where many people value measurements. 

I also use a separate pre with my RME (a Croft valve hybrid which probably measures badly if the review of a Croft in Stereophile is anything to go by) because, to me, it sounds better.  Though I’m fully open to the possibility that the difference between the Croft and the RME is some kind of distortion that I just happen to like.

There is a big distinction between objectively better and subjectively better, and experience suggests that not respecting that here leads to arguments.

(I also concede the problems with scientific objectivity - Popper, Kuhn, Kant, Wittgenstein etc all made very good points)

111 (edited by N00b 2019-07-31 09:31:03)

Re: [ADI-2 Dac] HiFi : you use a preamp or not ?

hhrvoje wrote:

[...]
And your statement "I do not want anything in between a dac like the adi-2 and a power amp" - rme IS preamp there - as soon you add gain (with volume control, passive or active) necessary for power amp input sensitivity, you have a preamp.
[...]

A preamp -and especially a passive one- does not "add gain" most of the time (especially with modern sources); it is more of a variable attenuator wink

ADI-2 DAC - Neumann KH 310 A monitors