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Topic: MS did it again - XP SP3 kills FireWire 800

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/955408/en-us

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: MS did it again - XP SP3 kills FireWire 800

"However, this hotfix is intended to correct only the problem that is described in this article."

What's the meaning?

3 (edited by fl 2008-11-08 14:39:33)

Re: MS did it again - XP SP3 kills FireWire 800

luigichelli wrote:

"However, this hotfix is intended to correct only the problem that is described in this article."

What's the meaning?

I can only echo your feelings.  That so-called "Support" page contains some of the most inpenetrable writing I've ever seen.  It's like they lead you up to a door, vaguely suggest that something useful might be found behind the door, but then go off and tell you all about the door, how and when it was made, what a doorknob is, etc. - when what we're really interested in is whether or not we need the Hotfix to get our 1394 ports up to speed!

Is there any easy way to view the sidspeed setting of the firewire ports?  In the support article for the XP SP2 fix number KB885222, it suggests that the value can be found in a subfolder in the Registry, but when I follow the path outlined in that article...:

     1. Click Start, click Run, type regedit, and then click OK.
     2. Locate and then click the following registry subkey:
     HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Enum\PCI\1394_hc_hw_id\1394_instance_id\Device Parameters

..., I get as far as the HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Enum\PCI folder, but then there is NO 1394_hc_hw_id available, so I cannot access the further \1394_instance_id\Device Parameters, and so can proceed no further.

I have no idea whether or not I need to apply the XP SP3 Hotfix (955408) outlined on the page Matthias originally pointed to, as the writing on that page is completely unclear as to what it does, or how and where to view the resulting values.

It would be very helpful, if someone more Windows XP knowledgeable than I am could outline a simple method whereby we could at least view the sidspeed settings of the 1394 ports on a computer. 

In case it matters, I am running XP SP3 on a Bootcamp partition on two Macs - an iMac and a MacBook Pro, both of which are equiped with Firewire 400 AND 800 ports (1394 a and b).  Both machines have the TI Firewire chips (thankfully) and I connect my Fireface 800 to the Firewire 800 port and my external hard drives to the Firewire 400 port.

Thanks to anyone who can help me fight my way through the forrest of Windows configuration...

Frank Lockwood
http://LockwoodARS.com
Fireface 800 - Firmware 2.77
Drivers: Win7, 3.125; Mac, 3.36

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Re: MS did it again - XP SP3 kills FireWire 800

If the FW 800 port is reduced to 100 speed the FF will not work at all. The throughput of an external hardrive is so much reduced that everyone should notice it.

Some more information (especially to the SID Speed settings) is found here:

http://www.rme-audio.de/en_support_tech … irewire_xp

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: MS did it again - XP SP3 kills FireWire 800

fl wrote:

..., I get as far as the HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Enum\PCI folder, but then there is NO 1394_hc_hw_id available, so I cannot access the further \1394_instance_id\Device Parameters, and so can proceed no further.

Are you looking for the correct Id? To know what's the correct Id go to:
Control Panel->System->Hardware->Device Manager
Right click your 1394 controller and select properties
In the Details Tab you can see the Device Instance Id.
It's that Id that you should look for in the registry.
My Id is: VEN_104C&DEV_8235&SUBSYS_8023104C&REV_01

My SidSpeed is set to 0x03, so, considering the link supplied by MC, I should change it to 0x02?...

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Re: MS did it again - XP SP3 kills FireWire 800

yesgrey3 wrote:
fl wrote:

..., I get as far as the HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Enum\PCI folder, but then there is NO 1394_hc_hw_id available, so I cannot access the further \1394_instance_id\Device Parameters, and so can proceed no further.

Are you looking for the correct Id? To know what's the correct Id go to:
Control Panel->System->Hardware->Device Manager
Right click your 1394 controller and select properties
In the Details Tab you can see the Device Instance Id.
It's that Id that you should look for in the registry.
My Id is: VEN_104C&DEV_8235&SUBSYS_8023104C&REV_01

My SidSpeed is set to 0x03, so, considering the link supplied by MC, I should change it to 0x02?...

Ah, thank you so much for the Microsoft to English translation! 

I was able to locate my sidspeed entry, and found it was set to 2.  Since my machine has both 1394 a and b ports, I set it to 3, assuming that by that, both top speeds are enabled.

Frank Lockwood
http://LockwoodARS.com
Fireface 800 - Firmware 2.77
Drivers: Win7, 3.125; Mac, 3.36

Re: MS did it again - XP SP3 kills FireWire 800

fl wrote:

I was able to locate my sidspeed entry, and found it was set to 2.  Since my machine has both 1394 a and b ports, I set it to 3, assuming that by that, both top speeds are enabled.

Considering the link supplied by MC above, we should keep it at 0x02...
MC, can you confirm that with the new patch for SP3 SidSpeed could be set to 3, or is it still buggy and we should set it to 2?

This need a clarification, because the link above only referred SP1 and SP2, and now we are talking about SP3... maybe an update in that article?

Re: MS did it again - XP SP3 kills FireWire 800

I read this as it concern only those who upgrade from XP SP2 to SP3. If yo have slipstreamed XP SP3 and installed clean, everything should be fine. And that is the question, will it be fine?
Have to get home and test this. It should be an easy test if it is like Matthias says that FF800 will not work at all if MS messed it up ...

Pal

Re: MS did it again - XP SP3 kills FireWire 800

I appreciate this thread.  I brought this to the attention of the SAWStudio Users Forum a while back, too.

It looks like there's another issue besides only the SIDSpeed entry.

If you look at the bottom of the KB article, you'll see that a DLL is involved, as well:  Cstupd1394sidspeed.dll

You can manually edit your registry, of course, which doesn't necessitate installing the KB fix.  However, I'd like someone to confirm that changing the SIDSpeed entries ALONE is enough to solve the problem, or is the DLL necessary, too.

I installed the KB fix, but I find no mention of the DLL on my hard drive.  And I can't confirm that I'm now getting the FW800 bandwidth even though I've manually edited the required registry entries.

Anyone?

Thanks,
Ira Seigel

Re: MS did it again - XP SP3 kills FireWire 800

I have changed my SidSpeed to 3 and ran again the update. Now my SidSpeed is again 2.
So you only need to change the SidSpeed value to 2, the hotfix is for people who prefer to not messing around with the Registry. As you saw in my previous post, it's not obvious where to look for the SidSpeed key in the Registry...
The dll you refer is the way MS uses to change the SidSpeed value.

Re: MS did it again - XP SP3 kills FireWire 800

fl wrote:

In case it matters, I am running XP SP3 on a Bootcamp partition on two Macs - an iMac and a MacBook Pro, both of which are equiped with Firewire 400 AND 800 ports (1394 a and b).  Both machines have the TI Firewire chips (thankfully) and I connect my Fireface 800 to the Firewire 800 port and my external hard drives to the Firewire 400 port.

...

Frank, sorry to change the subject of your post, but I'm curious as to your setup.  What DAW(s) are you working with?  I'm specifically interested in Logic Pro 8 with an older (or new but inexpensive) Mac laptop, working smoothly with a FF800 or 400.

Thanks,
Ira Seigel

Re: MS did it again - XP SP3 kills FireWire 800

yesgrey3 wrote:

... The dll you refer is the way MS uses to change the SidSpeed value.

Thanks, but I'm not so sure about this. 

At the top of the KB article, it says this:
"On a Windows XP Service Pack 2 (SP2)-based computer, the 1394b FireWire device usually runs at S100 speed. After you apply hotfix 885222 and update the registries according to the instructions in Microsoft Knowledge Base article 885222, the device runs at S400 speed."

Yes, that refers to installing the OLD hotfix (for SP2), and the issue now is whether the same applies for this NEW hotfix - i.e., do you apply the hotfix AND update the registries, or is it an either/or choice?

I would REALLY appreciate it (many of us would) if this could be confirmed.

Regards,
Ira

Re: MS did it again - XP SP3 kills FireWire 800

I have read both articles, 885222 and 955408.
The hotfix for SP2 have 2 files: Cstupd1394sidspeed.dll and Ohci1394.sys
The hotfix for SP3 have 1 files: Cstupd1394sidspeed.dll

From my understanding:
After the SP2 upgrade we need a new Ohci1394.sys, and the Cstupd1394sidspeed.dll will change the Registry for the EXISTING 1394 devices (KB885222). If after applying the hotfix you install a NEW 1394 device, you should change the Registry for the NEW 1394 device. So, if you have your device already installed you only need to run the hotfix. Any new device you might add post this hotfix, you should set the correct SidSpeed in the Registry for it, following the instructions in the 885222 article.

If you have applyed the hotfix above for SP2 and then you upgrade your XP SP2 to SP3, you only need to set the correct SidSpeed setting in your Registry for the 1394 devices (KB955408). If you are confident with editing the Registry, you could skip the hotfix and just set yourself the SidSpeed in the Registry. If you are not, just run the hotfix.

Best Regards

14

Re: MS did it again - XP SP3 kills FireWire 800

I did test this a while back on a MacBook Pro (early 2008) with Bootcamp. If you do a slipstreamed and clean install of XP SP3 everything work just fine without any firewire tweaks (exept to disable the firewire network think). So I guess that means that this article only refer to those who upgrade to SP3 over a SP2 already installed (both with or without the firewire hotfixes for SP2).

But I learned something interesting the other day. I was helping a friend preparing some machines for a mobile recording session, and we ran into a "nice" code 10 "device cannot start" error in Bottcamped Win XP SP3 trying to connect a TC Electronic Konnekt 24D with the Dice II chip.
Believe it or not, but the solution was to force Win XP SP3 to use the MS Vista SP1 x86 32-bit firewire driver. You can read all about it here at M-Audios Forum. Both the Profire 2626 and 610 use the Dice II chip.

I guess I learned that the Vista firewire driver is actually working better than the one in XP. So I have now updated every single machine I own with the Vista driver and everything works just fine. I always run my Fireface 800 on Texas Instruments firewire chip, and did not have problems with original driver. But this experince made me trust that the Vista firewire driver is to be more reliable than the one in XP.

Re: MS did it again - XP SP3 kills FireWire 800

PAL wrote:

...

I guess I learned that the Vista firewire driver is actually working better than the one in XP. So I have now updated every single machine I own with the Vista driver and everything works just fine. I always run my Fireface 800 on Texas Instruments firewire chip, and did not have problems with original driver. But this experince made me trust that the Vista firewire driver is to be more reliable than the one in XP.

This is quite valuable information.  Thanks.  Can you post a link to the actual driver (does it exist outside of a Vista install file)?

Keep us updated on your results with your other machines.

Ira

16 (edited by PAL 2008-12-31 10:18:38)

Re: MS did it again - XP SP3 kills FireWire 800

IraSeigel wrote:

Can you post a link to the actual driver (does it exist outside of a Vista install file)?

I don't own a Vista DVD (and I don't know how to find the driver there). We found the driver on my friends daughters Vista laptop :-)

So go find some friends or family members with Vista already  installed and look for the folder named "1394.inf_82b142f8" in $:\Windows\System32\DriverStore\FileRepository and copy it to a memory stick or something.

Like I said, those drivers have not given me any problems both on a Bootcamp Win XP on a MacBook Pro, or on any ordinary PC I updated it with.

Just make sure you choose the right driver when installing. If you got a TI chip make sure you choose the Texas Instrument choice when asked. It is easy to say yes to no, no to yes and all that mess ... There is actually a choice for the OHCI Compliant IEEE 1394 Host Controller too, so for all I know this could be a good try for all those with other chipsets than the Texas Instrument.
If you do wrong, just do it over again or roll driver back to original state. No harm.

For instructions check the link to M-Audios Forum in my post above.

I wonder how the driver in MS Windows 7 Beta behaves ...

Edit: maybe you have to enable show hidden files (or super hidden) to see the folder i'm refering to

Re: MS did it again - XP SP3 kills FireWire 800

I find the above messages very confusing and should be grateful for advice.

I have both FF400 and FF800. I am running Windows XP with SP3.  I have not installed KB955408.

My FF400 has been working fine.  I have not used the FF800 for a while, but updated the drivers today:

Driver date: 30.01.09 : Version 2.95 : H/W Revision: 2.47.

I only ever use the firewire 400 connection to the computer.

Questions:

1. Do I need to bother about KB955408, or does it only matter with the firewire 800 connection?

2. Should I install firmware 2.94?  The RME Driver page says it is for FF800 with or without TCO (I dont have TCO).  But the readme advises me not to use it unless I have TCO.  These advices conflict!

Thanks for help.

David

Classical ambisonic surround recording: UFX, FF400, Alesis HD24, Edirol R-44/88, Samplitude ProX 3.

Re: MS did it again - XP SP3 kills FireWire 800

I have a FF800 running firmware 2.47.  I have NOT 'upgraded' the firmware to 2.70.  The main reason that I have not upgraded is because I do not have a TCO.  But just as importantly, it is because the anomaly between the website description and the readme file has been pointed out to RME, they have acknowledged the difference, yet they have not changed the 'readme' file; this leads me to believe that the 'jury is still out' on whether the 2.70 driver could cause problem with a FF800 that does not have a TCO.  Apparently it is very difficult (but not totally impossible) to downgrade from 2.70 to 2.47 and involves purposely "crashing" a firmware install to get the FF800 to reset itself to its' factory firmware state.  Not very elegant, at the very least.

As for the crippled FW fix - if you run it (which I did) and it is not needed, it will tell you that.  The important part is to go to the registry and check the 'sidspeed' setting to insure that it is set correctly (as is explained in the forum and the documentation of the KB).

--Dean

HDSP9652 w/ AEB4-I/O - FireFace800 - 2 x Presonus Digimax FS - FriendChip DMX16/18

Re: MS did it again - XP SP3 kills FireWire 800

> Right click your 1394 controller and select properties
> In the Details Tab you can see the Device Instance Id.
> It's that Id that you should look for in the registry.

I get : PCI\VEN_104C&DEV_8032&SUBSYS_3091103C&REV_00\4&13826118&0&4AA4

I opened regedit and searched on this string.  There were several occurrances of it, but none of them had a SidSpeed variable.

Help!

David

Classical ambisonic surround recording: UFX, FF400, Alesis HD24, Edirol R-44/88, Samplitude ProX 3.

Re: MS did it again - XP SP3 kills FireWire 800

Similar here.The website mentions just to add the missing SidSpeed variable.But since there are 2 strings in my case...