1 (edited by gaw0319 2016-10-25 20:05:49)

Topic: Totalmix freezes, causes DAW to freeze until UFX is unplugged. (Win7)

Earlier this year (in February), the studio that I work out of has moved from Mac OSX to Windows (Moving to the Samplitude DAW, which is Windows only). I have been using the same RME Fireface UFX interface. I used a firewire connection on Mac and now am using the UFX via USB on this Windows laptop. I am disappointed to say my experience has been not been too stable so far- I hear that RME interfaces are generally quite stable on Windows, although I have had some uncommonly bad luck it seems.

Occasionally, Totalmix FX will freeze and stop responding, and show the meters frozen as well. When this happens, the DAW freezes, and if the DAW was recording, audio capture also stops. During this time, no audio programs or Totalmix/Totalmix USB Settings will respond at all. I have to unplug or turn off the Fireface, and re-plug it/turn it back on, and immediately when unplugging the interface, the freeze stops, and the audio software begins to respond again. While Totalmix is frozen, the interface itself (its buttons and small built-in LCD screen) still respond okay.

The bug seems to happen randomly, but does occur slightly more frequently while changing audio programs, loading plugins, or performing some sort of action in a DAW. Disabling "D2D" in the Totalmix settings also makes the problem happen much more frequently, where the freeze would then be accompanied with a loud 'pop' noise.

I have tried the following to fix it:
-Upgrading to Intel's latest USB3 drivers, upgrade all of the laptop's drivers and firmware, and upgrading the interface's drivers and firmware to the latest versions
-Uninstalling RME drivers via "Programs and Features" and re-installing
-Using an Expresscard USB2 adapter and plugging in the interface via USB2 instead of USB3
-Using three different USB cables
-Disabling Selective USB Suspend in power options
-Disabling power saving on the USB3 root hub
-Disabling integrated graphics and going to only discrete GPU
-Disabling CPU voltage throttling in the Windows power options by setting min and max CPU to 100%
-Disabling voltage throttling in the BIOS
-Disabling a number of security-related CPU features in the BIOS
-Run the DAW and Totalmix on integrated graphics only via the nVidia options
-Disabling hardware acceleration (D2D) in Totalmix
-Locking registry and enabling MMCSS in Totalmix settings
-Disabling Aero in the Windows 7 display settings
-Removing all peripheral devices
-Using another DAW
-Disabling anti-aliasing, v-sync, and other related settings in the nVidia control panel for Totalmix and the DAW
-Running Totalmix as an administrator, and using various compatibility modes
-Using another RME interface (I also tried using my RME Babyface, and the problem still occurs)

Here's the interesting bit: When Totalmix is minimized to the notification area, and no Totalmix window is actually loaded up, the problem never happens. This freeze only seems to happen if a Totalmix window is present, and showing on the taskbar. This lends me to believe it may be graphically related, although I am not 100% sure.

To further test, when I plugged in an old M-Audio USB interface, I was able to use it for several hours without any problems. For some reason, this issue seems to be specific to Totalmix.

I have noticed a few other threads that show similar problems, although I am not sure whether they are the same cause:

https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=22360
https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=16235
https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=12436
https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=21566

After e-mailing the RME support, they told me that this is not a reported problem at all, that the above links are not similar enough to my problem, and asked me to contact my computer manufacturer instead. Needless to say, Lenovo support had no expertise in this particular issue, and wasn't able to suggest anything that I hadn't already tried.

Has anyone experienced this problem, and knows what to do to fix it? Has anyone had this freezing issue on newer versions of Windows (Windows 8 or 10) as well? I tried using the interface via Firewire by using a Startech expresscard, but that did not work (every time I initialized ASIO, there would be a loud and constant distorted/crackling sound).

The laptop is a Lenovo Thinkpad P70. The specs, if they are important to know, are:
Intel Xeon E3-1505M v5 CPU, DDR4 type ram, running from a Samsung NVMe hard drive, USB3 and 3.1 ports, USB2 via Expresscard adapter, integrated and discrete GPU (The discrete GPU is an nVidia Quadro M3000m. Optimus GPU switching or discrete-only GPU modes are available, but integrated-only is not available on this laptop). The OS is Windows 7 64 bit. I use an external HDMI monitor (A Samsung TV) and use this HDMI connection for audio passthrough as well, for non-ASIO purposes like web browsing and so on. I also have two USB hubs plugged in, one with the keyboard and mouse, and the other with an iLok and eLicenser plugged in. I always record in 88k/24 bit or 44.1/24 bit, and my primary DAWs are Studio One v3 and Samplitude Pro X2, although I have seen this problem in Guitar Rig, Sibelius, and other programs using the UFX ASIO.

If anyone has any experience with this issue, please do let me know! Any help or input would be greatly appreciated.

______________
EDIT (25th October, 2016) - Solution:
After talking to nVidia and trying various versions of their Quadro graphics drivers, the issue seemed to be related to either the graphics drivers themselves, or how Totalmix was interacting with that particular variant on the graphics drivers. The older versions of the Quadro drivers were far worse. What is unusual is, not only was Totalmix affected by unstable graphics drivers, but the DAWs and all programs using ASIO were affected as well. For reasons I don't quite understand, a computer's graphics drivers seem to be able to directly affect the stability of ASIO (when, intuitively, it seems like they should be separate). In Samplitude Pro X2 (it seems to be improved in the new X3 version), the less stable versions of the graphics drivers would result in lost ASIO buffers every time I would load a plugin window, or do anything that required something to be rendered.
I've since then moved to Windows 10, and I'm happy to report that the newest versions of the nVidia drivers, combined with the newest RME drivers, seem to work without any problems, both on Firewire and USB. I have noticed that, on previous versions of the drivers, a few settings tweaks in the nVidia control panel improved stability a lot, especially with GPU-rendered plugins like Fabfilter and Vienna MIR Pro. If someone still has issues with what appears to be graphics-related instability, try the following:
Open the nVidia control panel, go to "Manage 3D Settings", and then to "Program Settings".
For any program that you use that uses ASIO (including standalone plugins like Guitar Rig, iZotope RX, and so on), apply the following:
-Anisotropic Filtering: Off
-Antialiasing Gamma Correction: Off
-Antialiasing Mode: Off
-Power Management Mode (if applicable): Prefer Consistent Performance
-Multi-Display/Mixed GPU Acceleration: Single Display Performance Mode (Multiple monitors still work fine in this mode)
-Shader Cache: Off
-Threaded Optimization: Off
-Vertical Sync: Off
This seems to make a big difference. Also, it might go without saying, but if your laptop/computer supports nVidia Optimus GPU switching, disable that and switch to GPU only. Optimus is generally awful, and GPU-only-mode can (if need be) free up a little bit of CPU for audio processing too.

Re: Totalmix freezes, causes DAW to freeze until UFX is unplugged. (Win7)

I remember that I had display issues, no hang or crash, which was kind of a flickering or distortion of TM (UFX).
Around 2y ago on a Lenovo T540P, Windows 7 SP1 64bit Enterprise, which has Intel HD 4600 Graphics and an extra GPU (nVidia N14M-GS 730M 1GB).

With the Intel HD Graphics all worked fine. But when simply playing back music via ASIO driver (which is possible with MusicBee player) I had dropouts when browsing the internet or even, if I scrolled a loaded page with grafic with the mouse wheel 1 or 2 lines up.

This I could only compensate with ASIO buffer of 256 which was too high for my taste (btw LatencyMon v4.20 showed kernel time latency of 50µs, no issues in that area).

It turned out that this goes completely away when I let the Internet Browser been computed by the nVidia GPU.
Then I could use the lowest ASIO buffer size of 48 samples without any issue and even with much of Internet Browsing etc.

Then I thought nice ide, lets also move totalmix to nVidia GPU (you can add in a dialog window, which applications to run on the nVidia. Well and as soon as the nVidia took over to display Totalmix, then this flickering / stuttering effect startet.

For me the outcome of this is:
a) that for Laptops I will never rely on a HW with Intel HD graphics (GPU in the CPU) alone
b) that Totalmix seems to have issues when being executed with certain nVidia HW/driver combination maybe exactly in this use case of having the combination of Intel integrated GPU and additional GPU.

But whether this is more Totalmix or a HW/driver issue, I can't tell.

The same UFX runs flawlessly on the same Lenovo T540 machine when using only the Intel HD Graphics
or when being used on my PC with Xeon 1650v3 and nVidia GTX 980 Graphics card.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Totalmix freezes, causes DAW to freeze until UFX is unplugged. (Win7)

Thanks for the information there,
Based on your experience, it seems even more likely that my video drivers might be causing these problems. It is a bit surprising that graphics issues could cause so many problems with audio, which, to me, seems somewhat unrelated hardware-wise. For the Thinkpad P70, in the BIOS, unfortunately I only have options to choose either discrete graphics only (the nVidia Quadro in my case) or hybrid graphics (nVidia Optimus I believe). Integrated only is not available to me, although I may be able to disable the Quadro GPU in the device manager. I will try that and see what the results are.

It seems that most of these Totalmix freezing problems are unique to Windows 7 x64 as well, from what I've read. I might try out Windows 8 or 10 on another partition and see if the problem persists, although it'd be great to solve the issue in Windows 7 instead, since installing another OS (and all of my recording software) is a somewhat time-consuming task.

4 (edited by ramses 2016-08-11 11:53:19)

Re: Totalmix freezes, causes DAW to freeze until UFX is unplugged. (Win7)

gaw0319 wrote:

Thanks for the information there,
Based on your experience, it seems even more likely that my video drivers might be causing these problems. It is a bit surprising that graphics issues could cause so many problems with audio, which, to me, seems somewhat unrelated hardware-wise. For the Thinkpad P70, in the BIOS, unfortunately I only have options to choose either discrete graphics only (the nVidia Quadro in my case) or hybrid graphics (nVidia Optimus I believe). Integrated only is not available to me, although I may be able to disable the Quadro GPU in the device manager. I will try that and see what the results are.

It seems that most of these Totalmix freezing problems are unique to Windows 7 x64 as well, from what I've read. I might try out Windows 8 or 10 on another partition and see if the problem persists, although it'd be great to solve the issue in Windows 7 instead, since installing another OS (and all of my recording software) is a somewhat time-consuming task.

Your CPU has internal Intel HD graphics, AFAIK 530 is the latest and greatest.
You do not necessarily need to select GPU in the BIOS.
Use the hybrid mode, there should be a possibility like in my case, to choose somewhere in the driver which
application shall use what GPU. In my case there was a mini icon on the lower right side. This you had to click and somewhere there you could choose.

Of course later you could try using Win8 or Win10 for comparison. In a good case of luck it solves your issue.

But then its still difficult to say what the root cause was, as you most likely do not use same drivers with the other OS.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

5

Re: Totalmix freezes, causes DAW to freeze until UFX is unplugged. (Win7)

The error that you see is most probably caused by the realtime level meters that TM FX shows. The transmission stops when all TM FX windows are closed/minimized. Nevertheless - the real error is not TM FX but your hardware which can not hold up a stable USB connection. Not TM FX causes the error, but it is the victim and the first sign that something is not as it should be. BTW, did you ever check for USB errors shown in the UFX Settings dialog?

@ Ramses: graphics problems with nVidia are not a general problem. In seldom cases a driver update fixed problems. Did you ever try the alternate graphics mode in TM FX preferences?

In the same way I can not confirm any problems working only with the Intel 530. I am doing this for some time now with my Dell XPS15, with phantasticc results (currently on a LG 3440 x 1440 screen via Thunderbolt, while using TB, USB3, USB 2 and FW at lowest latency).

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

6 (edited by gaw0319 2016-08-11 18:21:34)

Re: Totalmix freezes, causes DAW to freeze until UFX is unplugged. (Win7)

Thanks for the information ramses and Matthias, it is definitely helpful in further diagnosing this problem.
The Thinkpad P70 does have hybrid graphics, but the external display ports (Displayport and HDMI) both require the use of the nVidia GPU. I was able to disable the nVidia GPU in the Device Manager, but was then stuck with using the built-in display only. I can set certain programs to render via integrated GPU only (from the "Manage 3d Settings" in the nVidia control panel) but this does not seem to affect the problem one way or another. As a workaround, I am going to try to use a Thunderbolt 3-to-HDMI adapter that should be arriving tomorrow, to see if this allows me to continue to use external displays on the integrated GPU only. I will also try a Thunderbolt 3-to USB hub and USB 3.1 to USB 3 adapter (as well as a few different branded Firewire expresscards) to see if this can help clear up the issue as well.

The UFX Settings dialog does not show any errors when this freeze happens either, although while the freeze is occurring, I am unable to open that UFX Settings dialog until I restart or unplug the UFX.

I think it makes sense that the meters might be part of the problem. Strange enough, when D2D is disabled, the problem is much more frequent, and seems to freeze nearly every time in the event of a clip. For example, if I turn off D2D, turn a preamp very high, and tap on the mic, it would almost certainly result in Totalmix freezing. I find that when the Totalmix window is minimized, though, no other problems seem to occur- no cut-outs, no pops or clicks, no freezes, no reported errors, or anything like that. I have not yet had problems with other USB devices, or my older budget-brand USB interface, but I can do some further testing with my old interface to see if I can replicate any of these problems on those as well, which might help narrow it down.

7 (edited by ramses 2016-08-11 19:02:55)

Re: Totalmix freezes, causes DAW to freeze until UFX is unplugged. (Win7)

MC wrote:

@ Ramses: graphics problems with nVidia are not a general problem. In seldom cases a driver update fixed problems. Did you ever try the alternate graphics mode in TM FX preferences?

As its my company notebook I deinstalled recording related SW some time ago. It was just a test for eventually buying one for private use. For testing purposes I installed now the lastest RME USB driver for UFX: v1.093, HW rev 357.
OS: Windows 7 SP1 x64 Enterprise
nVidia driver: 344.11 from 18.09.14.

Whats strange / new: I can not add Totalmix to the list of programs, to determine whether to use internal or nVidia Graphics ... I can "add" Totalmix and "Apply" ...
but when I close and reopen this screen (nVidia Control Panel -> Manage 3D Settings -> TAB "Program Settings")
then the Totalmix entry is gone (c:\windows\system32\totalmixfx.exe).
Sorry, I can't test this now for you. I fear the User Policies have been set even more restrictive though I am admin on this system. But I am pretty sure even those rights can be restricted by policy manager.

Strage that it was possible though, to add Firefox and to switch between using nvidia and internal graphics.

BTW: when I use the Intel HD graphics I get again audio drops with ASIO buffer size of 48 when scrolling up and down in Firefox Web pages with graphics in it, like i.e. heise.de. It goes away when running Firefox via nVidia GPU.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

8

Re: Totalmix freezes, causes DAW to freeze until UFX is unplugged. (Win7)

Assigning TM FX to nVidia 960m is no problem on my system, and it works perfectly (well, no real difference to the 530, as that one is already butter-smooth). Of course I use a newer driver, 368.81, 07/14/2016.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

9 (edited by gaw0319 2016-08-13 01:23:59)

Re: Totalmix freezes, causes DAW to freeze until UFX is unplugged. (Win7)

I have done a bit more testing, and found out a few interesting bits of information regarding this freezing issue:

I tried using a USB 3.1 port on the laptop (which, as far as I know, appears to use both different hardware and drivers from the standard USB 3 ports on the laptop), and the problem still persisted in the exact same manner. I also tried connecting the external monitor to a Displayport port, a HDMI port, and a USB3.1 to HDMI port, and all of them exhibited the same freezing. It is important to also note that the laptop must use the nVidia GPU in order to use any external monitor. The integrated Intel GPU only seems to work for the internal laptop display.

I did a bit more testing regarding the graphics, and found a few interesting details. In the Device Manager, I was able to disable the nVidia GPU, which forced the system to use the integrated Intel GPU, but when I did this, none of my external display ports were working. Since I use an external display for recording most of the time, this is not a good work-around. Another thing to note is that when I would disable that nVidia GPU, the Totalmix meters would show a quick 'pop' of levels as if I had restarted the interface itself.
What is very interesting is that, when re-enabling the nVidia GPU, Totalmix would freeze in the same manner as I have been trying to diagnose. To test the consistency of this, I tried it two more times, and every time I re-enabled the nVidia GPU in the Device Manager, the same exact freeze would happen. I have screenshotted the error (the meters shown in this screenshot are frozen, and not moving).

http://i.imgur.com/1Mbawll.jpg

On the third time, the computer blue-screened shortly after. Here is a picture I quickly took of the error itself:

http://i.imgur.com/Km7NY2j.jpg

I managed to save the dump file from the blue-screen event as well. Here is a download link:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByRtj … 2NzQnlBN0U

Since this problem has occurred on USB2 ports, USB3 ports, and USB3.1 ports, each with different drivers and hardware, but has not occurred on other brand interfaces, this definitely seems to be a graphically-rooted problem with Totalmix itself, specifically with the newer nVidia Quadro GPU's. I understand the Quadro GPU's are not as widely supported because they are less common than consumer GPU's, but this Quadro GPU has had good compatibility with all other software and plugins I have been using, and it seems to only be Totalmix that has trouble with it. The Quadro is the only thing that is quite different from the hardware mentioned above, and I think it is safe to assume that it narrows it down to the GPU. Unfortunately, many modern workstation laptops and desktops (which are otherwise very well-suited for recording use because of their power) have Quadro GPU's, so I hope to see a reasonable fix to this problem soon. I am going to test this on different Firewire expresscards, and I can post an update after that.

Re: Totalmix freezes, causes DAW to freeze until UFX is unplugged. (Win7)

Did I understand correctly that the error does not happen with the Intel GPU, not even after hours of working with it? If you did do a long time test, then please do that first.

Once we are sure that the NVidia GPU is the culprit there are some things we can try. Among those are two you can try right away:

- Switch to the "High Performance" Windows profile to stop any PCIe related power saving functions.
- Enforce NVidia only mode via BIOS and then switch the NVidia driver to the Microsoft Basic Display Adapter via Device Manager.

It's also worth mentioning that some months ago I tested one of the big expensive NVidia Quadro desktop GPUs here and saw no such issues (Windows 7).

Re: Totalmix freezes, causes DAW to freeze until UFX is unplugged. (Win7)

I apologize for the delay, because of the somewhat random nature of the bug, it has taken me a bit of time to test the things you have suggested. Here is what I have found out:

High performance mode is enabled, and has been the entire time, so that probably rules that out.

The error does not seem to happen on the Intel GPU alone, and also does not seem to happen while using the nVidia GPU only, but with the drivers uninstalled, and using the basic drivers, as you had suggested. I suppose this does not absolutely confirm that the problem could not have happened, since it is so random, but in about 2 hours of testing per scenario, I noticed no issues (With D2D on or off). Neither of these are an option for me since the external monitor ports do not work with either the nVidia GPU or nVidia drivers disabled, but it does perhaps reveal more about the nature of the issue.

I did notice, though, that when connected via USB, I had another, perhaps unrelated issue, regardless of graphics driver settings. The buffer size seems to become mismatched while switching audio programs, and I get a distorted, "sample-mismatched" glitchy sound until I go into the Fireface USB settings, change the buffer size, and then change it back again. Only then does it seem like the software "lock in" to the correct buffer size, and function correctly. It seems to affect recording as well as playback, and this problem was still present, requiring me to reset the buffer size every time I would switch sample rates. I think part of the problem is, when going from, let's say, 88k to 44k, Totalmix automatically halves or doubles the buffer size to maintain the same latency. The audio programs, though, do not usually do this. In Cantabile, for example (A standalone VSTi player), when switching sample rates, the software wants to see the same buffer size, while Totalmix switches buffer sizes automatically, and does not seem to correctly update the software to this switch. I have to manually reset the buffer size in the Totalmix USB settings because of this, which isn't a huge problem, but since I use hardware monitoring for recordings, it has resulted in me having to throw out a few good takes at the beginning of sessions because they record distorted due to a mismatch.

I did notice another interesting detail about this freezing problem. I tried purchasing a few Firewire expresscard adapters to test this out as well. I tried a Startech Firewire 400 card, a Siig Firewire 400 card, and a Startech Firewire 800 card. Both of the Firewire 400 cards did not work at all. The Startech 400 card resulted in loud, distorted cracking, constantly, every time I would initialize ASIO. The SIIG card just did not work at all, and no audio would play. (Both of these cards worked fine for an external Firewire hard drive that I tested). The Firewire 800 card, connected via a Firewire 800 to 400 cable, works great though.

Running the UFX via Firewire, I have not experienced any freezing problems at all, nor have I experienced any problems with buffer size mismatches. For now, this is my solution (although, for mobile recording, I still rely on a Babyface, which is unfortunately USB only, so I still have to be wary of freezing using this interface).

I'm not sure why the nVidia graphics drivers would only cause trouble with USB connections, but since the problem seemed to go away when I had entirely removed the nVidia drivers in one way or another, they still seem to be a culprit here.

12 (edited by gaw0319 2016-10-25 20:04:17)

Re: Totalmix freezes, causes DAW to freeze until UFX is unplugged. (Win7)

Since it has been two months since I last posted, I figured I would provide an update:

After talking to nVidia and trying various versions of their Quadro graphics drivers, the issue seemed to be related to either the graphics drivers themselves, or how Totalmix was interacting with that particular variant on the graphics drivers. The older versions of the Quadro drivers were far worse. What is unusual is, not only was Totalmix affected by unstable graphics drivers, but the DAWs and all programs using ASIO were affected as well. For reasons I don't quite understand, a computer's graphics drivers seem to be able to directly affect the stability of ASIO (when, intuitively, it seems like they should be separate). In Samplitude Pro X2 (it seems to be improved in the new X3 version), the less stable versions of the graphics drivers would result in lost ASIO buffers every time I would load a plugin window, or do anything that required something to be rendered.

I've since then moved to Windows 10, and I'm happy to report that the newest versions of the nVidia drivers, combined with the newest RME drivers, seem to work without any problems, both on Firewire and USB. I have noticed that, on previous versions of the drivers, a few settings tweaks in the nVidia control panel improved stability a lot, especially with GPU-rendered plugins like Fabfilter and Vienna MIR Pro. If someone still has issues with what appears to be graphics-related instability, try the following:
Open the nVidia control panel, go to "Manage 3D Settings", and then to "Program Settings".
For any program that you use that uses ASIO (including standalone plugins like Guitar Rig, iZotope RX, and so on), apply the following:
-Anisotropic Filtering: Off
-Antialiasing Gamma Correction: Off
-Antialiasing Mode: Off
-Power Management Mode (if applicable): Prefer Consistent Performance
-Multi-Display/Mixed GPU Acceleration: Single Display Performance Mode (Multiple monitors still work fine in this mode)
-Shader Cache: Off
-Threaded Optimization: Off
-Vertical Sync: Off

This seems to make a big difference. Also, it might go without saying, but if your laptop/computer supports nVidia Optimus GPU switching, disable that and switch to GPU only. Optimus is generally awful, and GPU-only-mode can (if need be) free up a little bit of CPU for audio processing too.